ouch787's avatar

ouch787

14 points

FWIW using a wide range that folds to 3b works wonders vs this pool.

Dec. 4, 2017 | 12:40 a.m.

Comment | ouch787 commented on Solver questions.....

I like how my post started forum drama thanks to those who posted. I think Pio has a lot more functionality than I’m using. Going to check out some Pio vids.

Dec. 1, 2017 | 12:40 a.m.

Post | ouch787 posted in NLHE: Solver questions.....

I am very new to the use of solvers. My main question is pertaining to overbets. It seems as though in spots where we have say nfd and are faced with a 120% overbet that solvers tend to lean towards folding. Obviously this is optimal as if we go around calling all overbets we will go broke. However what happens when we have a villian that knows this and frequently overbets as a bluff. It's impossible for a solver to take dynamic into account. Or am I wrong and solvers should be the final judgment in all cases?

Nov. 22, 2017 | 7:47 p.m.

This hand seems pretty standard. I would have made flop bet closer to 1/3 and turn bet significantly bigger closer to 70%. River is tricky because if you x you put yourself in an exploitable spot and villian can jam and you are in an awkward spot. One way to play it is to bet river and fold to a shove.

Nov. 20, 2017 | 7:58 p.m.

A few things. Generally when we have button vs blind it helps to know buttons steal stats. That said, assuming his steal stat is standard I like a 3b here. As for the post flop play i think you most definitely need to pull the trigger on the river. This runout is perfect for firing 3barrels. I don't think you need to shove river just another bet and fold to a raise.

Nov. 20, 2017 | 12:05 a.m.

lol Dad moved to Thailand he loves it. Yes after a losing session going over hands is by far the best thing to do. It helps to see that all of your beats were correct plays and that you were just running bad. On the other hand if you did make mistakes it helps to see them and plug leaks.

Nov. 19, 2017 | 5:34 a.m.

Generally check raising is a good option vs someone who has a high Cb stat. We want to CR all boards that are dry and are not likely to hit villains range paired boards and boards that give you strong draws are good textures to CR. On the other hand versus someone who has a high flop CV and high turn Cb we would b better off letting villain continue betting and save CR for later street.

Nov. 19, 2017 | 5:24 a.m.

I wasn't being a troll man. I am really bad at explaining things which is why I'm trying to post more.

Nov. 19, 2017 | 5:18 a.m.

Why do you think J4 isn't part of their range. OP said both were weak players so I think J4s is def in their range.AQ and KQ. may definitely be in his PF range on the flop I suppose KQ AQ might raise w str8 draws so u r correct AQ and KQ should be considered.

Nov. 19, 2017 | 2:41 a.m.

Mitchell Reid the latter is my opinion. Obviously not all live players but many of them don't go over HHS like online players do. This could likely be because they don't have access to perfect HHs or the online tools like pio CRev flopzilla etc. I imagine some use the pokerstove equiv for range analysis but that's it.

Nov. 19, 2017 | 2:37 a.m.

To a minraise folding this hand would be silly. Take a look at some of the HU viids tell me how many hands you see folded

Nov. 18, 2017 | 5:27 a.m.

Bro this is not 6m As I mentioned this is hu. You play a lot more hands.

Nov. 18, 2017 | 5:25 a.m.

As to the bet I am curious why you said it is bullshit. I agree it's not much like the bovada pool. The dynamic just reminded me of the bet and I thought I would share it. I am sure over the long haul AA has a giant edge.

Nov. 17, 2017 | 4:51 p.m.

You are correct it would be foolish to assume every reg plays this way. I am making my assumptions based on 8 days of play where I played about 7 hours each day. During this time I maybe saw less than 20 3b pots that were not QQ+. Now it's important to note I am likely biased as you can't see how a hand ends unless you are involved in it as it's zone. So these are pots that I was involved in. I think it's safe to say that this strategy is being used by a large number of regs.

Nov. 17, 2017 | 4:47 p.m.

Ok I noticed that on Bovada zone 200nl roughly all the regs employ the same strategy. They overfold and only play QQ KK AK and AA. Everything else is folded. The short stacking rec players obviously play very wide ranges and set mine but every time i saw a 3b pot it was those hands AIPF.

This got me thinking. There has to be a way to exploit this. I quickly learned that calling 3b with AJ AQ or pockets are generally dominated if an ace comes and if we miss our set w a pp we get blown off our hand.

This reminds me of a thread on twoplustwo where 2 guys have a propbet where one bets the other he can win if villian has AA every hand.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/58/heads-up-nl/hu-cash-you-always-have-aa-580047/index3.html

This dynamic is similar to our 200 bovada pool. Now obviously the bet has giant margins of error 300 hands is not nearly enough to be statistically significant. That and in the bet player who has AA everytime is capable of folding AA where we can assume that in a anonymous zone pool most villians are never folding AA unless super super deep.

So my question is how can we alter our play so that we can play optimally versus such a tight range. I have experimented with playing hands that can't be dominated and flop well like med suited connectors. Also tried limping to avoid being 3b which so far has been a successful adjustment.

So if we made this into a toy game everytime we get 3b villian has AAKK AK how do we play??

Nov. 17, 2017 | 3:16 a.m.

Same villian as other HH, villian is very aggressive but I have not seen him bluff yet. Villian is 95/44 q 21 3b and 67 cb

Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $4 PL Hi (2 max) - Omaha Hi - 2 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

SB: $400.00 (VPIP: 70.87, PFR: 62.14, 3Bet Preflop: 30.77, Hands: 111)
Hero (BB): $1,432.40

SB posts SB $2.00, Hero posts BB $4.00

Pre Flop: (pot: $6.00) Hero has Qc 7c 3d 8c
SB raises to $12.00, Hero calls $8.00

Flop : ($24.00, 2 players) 9h Th 7s
Hero checks, SB bets $17.25, Hero calls $17.25

Turn : ($58.50, 2 players) Js
Hero checks, SB bets $57.50, Hero calls $57.50

River : ($173.50, 2 players) 5d
Hero checks, SB bets $144.50, Hero calls $144.50

SB shows 4c Qh Kc 9d (Straight, King High)
(Pre 61%, Flop 65%, Turn 100%)

Hero shows Qc 7c 3d 8c (Straight, Queen High)
(Pre 39%, Flop 35%, Turn 0%)

SB wins $461.50

Nov. 16, 2017 | 11:50 p.m.

Given that fish bet into you what are you trying to accomplish by the CR? It would make sense if a K flopped vlbut you are clearly in a way ahead or way behind spot. By CRing his flop bet we are giving him the opportunity to put his stack in w potentially the best hand. Would you have made this play if villian was 150bb deep?

Granted assuming he does have the best hand the money would have gone in regardless. I just think that CRing when you didn't flop a set.

Nov. 16, 2017 | 5:30 p.m.

Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $4 PL Hi (2 max) - Omaha Hi - 2 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BB: $411.60 (VPIP: 74.60, PFR: 63.49, 3Bet Preflop: 36.36, Hands: 68)
Hero (SB): $986.33

Hero posts SB $2.00, BB posts BB $4.00

Pre Flop: (pot: $6.00) Hero has Qh 2c Qc 2h
Hero raises to $8.00, BB calls $4.00

Flop : ($16.00, 2 players) 9s 5h Kh
BB checks, Hero bets $7.60, BB raises to $38.00, Hero calls $30.40

Turn : ($92.00, 2 players) 6h
BB bets $83.00, Hero calls $83.00

River : ($258.00, 2 players) 2d
Hero??

Villian is a good regular this is a me taking a shot at next level. Villian is 91/55 w 363b. No other reads since and I have not caught him bluffing at all so far. He has potted turns before and then checked river when a scare card comes.

Nov. 16, 2017 | 3:30 p.m.

Just curious how many hands is that it's too small to read. Also what is the biggest number of buyins downswing u experienced. Your graph looks very smooth for plo

Nov. 16, 2017 | 3:27 a.m.

I have been playing huplo for the past few months and I noticed that 70% of my AAxx KKxx that are not AIPF are getting folded on the river. I see a lot of other players specifically my opponents who are dead set on going broke with these hands. Ironically while I am losing money with these hands postflop when not AIPF a large number of the 100bb pots i have won were against these hands.
Here is where im confused. Our AAxx KKxx hands are very easily counterfeited by 2 pr if board doesn't pair. So i end up folding often when my river bet is raised. I am sure i am being exploited in some of these spots. It's gotten to the point where I am more comfortable playing AKQJds than overpairs.
Aby advice for this HUPLO fish would be greatly appreciated.

Nov. 16, 2017 | 3:25 a.m.

Comment | ouch787 commented on 4b pot A4s SBvBB

suited broadways are great hands to 4b as they can flop well. We can also 4b hands that make our range deceptive like 9Ts. Obviously don't do this regularly just for deception.

Nov. 16, 2017 | 3:11 a.m.

Comment | ouch787 commented on 4b pot A4s SBvBB

I generally don't like 4b Hands like this simply because we are holding a hand that can be dominated. If an A comes on the flop you will have a tough time getting away from the hand. His 3b stat does warrant a 4b I just feel like there are many better hands to do this with like medium pocket pairs and suited broadways. When it comes to 4bing we want to be able to effectively tell a story of us holding AA KK that looks convincing. That said you want to avoid cbing and then xing turn because it caps your range and makes you exploitable. I feel like you didn't have a thought out plan when you decided to 4b here.

It's very easy to get caught in the moment of a 4b and make a mistake that compounds itself as we go from street to street. I think you decide on the flop whether or not you are going to take this all the way. In this case it would have been better to x the flop and see what villain does. Some may disagree but I feel like xing the flop after a 4b doesn't turn your hand as face up as cbing flop and xing turn.

Nov. 16, 2017 | 1:15 a.m.

I think when you are OOP you want to 3b bigger than when you are in position. So I would have made it closer to 14. Fop and turn re played fine. With hands like this your river play can make or break you. On the one hand if you x river your hand is turned face up and u can be exploited. So I it is best to block bet and fold to a raise.

Nov. 16, 2017 | 12:58 a.m.

Well based on the information you provided we are able to assign villains a range. You said that villain called v2s open and then you 3b which both v2 and villain called. We can assume that since you said he was a weak player it would be safe to assume he wouldn't do anything Tracy like flatting with AA KK or QQ he would have 4b you if he had those holdings. Next piece of info you provided was the flop play where he XRed your Cbet. With that info I gave him a range of 44 J4 JT and maybe TT and all club draws. Would you agree that given the limited information we have that his value range consists of those hands?? I guess I am confused by your question. We can't see villains range but we can estimate his range based on the action. You don't need Pio to put someone on a range lol.

Nov. 16, 2017 | 12:48 a.m.

I have been hearing mixed reviews on these China mobile app games. Pokermaster, Pokerlord and several others have built a reputation for having very soft high stakes games with mostly Chinese business men. However, i heard stories about bad agents who don't pay people out and some games have collusion or soft play. If I were to play I would likely play HU as i can be sure there is no collusion. I know one of the apps is PT4 compatible. Does anyone have any experience with these games. I don't speak or read Chinese which I heard might be a problem. I play mid stakes no higher than 1k so playing 2k nl would be a shot for me but worth it if game is soft. Any experiences??

Nov. 15, 2017 | 4:54 p.m.

This is because many live players just don't see the value of Pio. They don't see why you would want to buikd a range based on one specific spot. Many of them just say "well it's not likely ill be in that spot again so why bother?"

Nov. 15, 2017 | 4:38 p.m.

Wait is this on one of those China mobile poker apps?? I keep hearing how soft those games are.

Nov. 15, 2017 | 4:29 p.m.

Definitely not a fan of a shove here. You are never called by worse. You said that both villians are weak so why would you want to shove. Plays like this generally are reserved for spots when you are playing a heads up match and villian is down 4 buyins and totally tilted and desperately trying to get even. Spots like this where you know villian is tilted and might talk himself into calling with midpair or a FD.

However, given the play and fact villian raises you here I think a jam is horrible. You say that you are raising for fold equity and to avoid seeing bad turns. Let's look at how many bad turns 11 clubs Ks and Qs aren't really bad as they improve your hand to a str8 draw and don't really hit villians range. 3 Ts and 3 4s. So 17 cards out of the 44 remaining in the deck hurt you. Not enough to warrant a jam in my opinion. Everything else in the deck basically leaves you in the same position you are on the flop. That said wouldn't it make sense to see a turn and reevaluate based on what villian does?

Its possible villian has air here and checks turn after u call his XR allowing you to extract more money with value bets.

Or its possible villian has TT J4, JT or 44 all of which have you crushed and would snap call a shove. If villian continues aggression on the turn you can possibly get away from the hand.

I think your reason for shoving generally applies to spots where youre hand is unlikely to improve and you want to price out draws like if you have AA on a 689cc board and are 3 handed. In your case your hand can still improve and you don't ever want to commit your stack in a spot where you are either way ahead or way behind.

Nov. 15, 2017 | 4:27 p.m.

A few things on using Pio. Pio is only as good as the information that you feed it. In other words it is absolutely possible for Pio to cause leaks in your game or even worse gross misunderstandings as to what is optimal play. For example I know of a certain player who is totally lazy and sloppy with how he inputs HH data. As a result his sloppy xfer of HH info has caused him on more than one occasion to believe a certain line is correct based on Pio results however when his work was reviewed we found he incorrectly put in vital details like correct position and stacks. Im not saying that you would ever make these mistakes. It just seems like you are new to range construction and Pio just make sure that you are ABSOLUTELY thorough when you use Pio otherwise it does more harm than good.

Nov. 15, 2017 | 3:17 p.m.

Not sure what you mean. There are hand range charts everywhere try Google.

Nov. 15, 2017 | 12:34 p.m.

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