Misha Savinov's avatar

Misha Savinov

27 points

I think the hand is played perfectly. The only street you could play differently is the flop, but in vaccuum I prefer the way you handled it.

Dec. 18, 2014 | 11:45 p.m.

Hand History | Misha Savinov posted in PLO: Meh river spot at the PLO WCOOP
BB: $0
UTG: $2058
UTG1: $5171
UTG2: $22041
UTG3: $4806
LJ: $8590
HJ: $13326 (Hero)
CO: $10635
BN: $7814
SB: $5340
A KO PLO $215 WCOOP tournament, slightly more than half the field busted, no ICM considerations. Blinds are 100/200. The Villain in this hand is loose and sticky (VPIP ~45, fold to cbet ~30). However, I'd rather discuss this from a general theory prospective rather than opponent specific. I am not a PLO specialist, so my reasoning may be way off.
Preflop ($300.00) (9 Players)
Hero was dealt J Q 8 9
UTG1 folds, UTG2 folds, BB folds, LJ calls $200, Hero raises to $600, CO calls $600, BN folds, SB folds, UTG folds, LJ folds
Flop ($1700.00) 3 2 J (2 Players)
Hero bets $1105, CO calls $1105
Decent and quite cbetable board for me. The opponent shouldn't have much of a raising range, provided I block the top set, lower sets are unlikley and he has position to work with for all his draws, overpairs and random backdoor/pair floats. I should be well ahead of his calling range and have many decent barrelling cards.

Against most opponents cbet with this sizing should be auto profitable due to a folding equity, right? I do not play PLO cash, and maybe people are more reluctant to fold here than I thought, so feel free to share your view.
Turn ($3910.00) 3 2 J 7 (2 Players)
Hero bets $3000, CO calls $3000
Not an ideal card but gives me three nut outs at least. I think I have to keep betting for value and protection. IMO he should be calling this with J, KK+ and flush draws+, maaybe some low wraps (is this a call without clubs?).
River ($9910.00) 3 2 J 7 Q (2 Players)
Hero checks, CO bets $2800, Hero folds
5,930 effective stacks. I decided to check-chicken to such a small sizing because I really didn't see many hands the Villain may want to turn into a bluff. On the other hand, he should have clubs a ton. Is this a horrendous fold or I saved a couple of blinds?
Final Pot
CO wins $9910

Sept. 11, 2014 | 1:40 a.m.

Equitywise, the first hand is surprisingly close to a call (yes, this is counterintuitive). Still, neither hand has enough % to peel, and we also have very poor visibility. I'd probably call #2 in a match, mostly because it has the best visibility (you just want to hit a 2p+ or a wrap), but it is probably a small mistake. 

Aug. 6, 2014 | 1:11 a.m.

Winrates above 2.0 BB/100 are considered very good. 3 BB sound rather unreasonable at small to mid stakes, but may be possible at high stakes due to very low rake.

I am in Las Vegas btw, a lot of cash LO8 action here :)

June 11, 2014 | 9:20 a.m.

Hi midori,

This is only fixed limit, I don't really play NL or PL because I am too curious, and it costs money in big bet games :)

As for the learning materials, these games are completely unpopular compared to NLHE, so there is no demand for good instructors. Pretty much every video on FL omaha8 I've seen is outdated and advertises bad plays at times. Which may be a good thing. I've heard good feedback about Deppen's Pot Limit book, but it is pretty basic. Most winning players play differently. I would suggest watching SCOOP and WCOOP replays with hole cards revealed (at PokerStars client; Americans can do that too btw), which at least gives some insight at how these games are played currently (although tournament format is obviously a different thing).

The action in FLO8 is barely enough. I am not the biggest multitabler, so I could entertain myself with like 4 tables 24/7, but finding 8+ tables of your favorite stakes might be challenging. The good news is 1) it is really hard to play many tables of a fixed limit game when you have to VPIP like 40 or 50% (3-4-max), 2) since all the split pots are raked, we get a lot of VPPs even from very few tables. Have no idea about the action in NL or PL versions.

You are welcome!

May 24, 2014 | 11:34 p.m.

People complaining the rake is too high, etc.

FWIW, my PokerStars graph for 2014, up to 5/10 (very little 10/20), filtered for 3-6 max.

I am not the best reg at the low stakes (probably more like top-5 or so), but feel free to ask questions if you like. My incentive: I am very grateful to Matt Ashton for a brief conversation @ WSOP hallways that encouraged me to work on my breakeven game. His post here is insane good, too. I also enjoy omaha8 so much and wish more people appreciated the beauty of this game.

May 8, 2014 | 6:53 a.m.

Did he fold? :)

April 30, 2014 | 12:20 a.m.

"Making nut/nut hands", "one way hands", "terrible 4567". Such terminology makes me feel it's 2003. Wish people talked more about equity threshold vs range, adequate board coverage from EP and in 3b pots, discussed raising turns vs. calling down with good-ish made hands, etc. But it seems like only MAshton can do those things. O8 community is superclosed compared to almost any other poker game. No wonder it is kinda stagnating online :(


April 10, 2014 | 5:45 p.m.

(4), cause you are already removed from the killer's list. (3) is super important, but people don't pay attention. Everybody wants to win more without changing their habits, and it makes sense to me!

Feb. 22, 2014 | 4:46 p.m.

Great stuff, Sam! Spot on. People who claim u30 poker players are boring, haven't met many. I always thought there should be more entertainment in poker videos, and was happy to see betudontbet and samsquid here. Please keep being yourself. We come here to learn and to have fun, and balancing out the fun element is something only best teachers can do.

Feb. 19, 2014 | 6:36 p.m.

Comment | Misha Savinov commented on Brag
We all know you rivered 7, and your April's fool joke is a week too late!!

April 7, 2013 | 9:03 a.m.

Against two players you should even break 9.

April 4, 2013 | 5:39 p.m.

Call/pat/call is a safe and profitable route. Raise and complicate life with history or for creating history (it def can be more profitable, but it requires you playing your A game). Don't ever think of breaking an 8 to a 3bet though.

Btw this is a reg, although he is more on a PLO side rather than limit. But he has all kinds of bluffs and thin value for sure.

March 23, 2013 | 1:22 p.m.

Enjoyed the video. Phil developed a great pace when discussing hands, so he manages to cover everything or almost everything comfortably.
Just one thing I'd like to discuss. On 21:16 we are seeing a flop K109ss 3-way OOP with Qc3c9h10h. Do you guys think this is a good spot to lead? I feel our hand is a bit too strong to cf to a cbet, and we cannot really cr. A side question is do we lead there with QJ?

Feb. 24, 2013 | 2:42 a.m.

Hand: http://www.handconverter.com/hands/2106308

Poker Stars $100+$9 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t1250/t2500 Blinds + t250 - 8 players
The DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Deanuzz (UTG+1): t43068 M = 7.49
Qw3Rtzui0p (MP1): t77826 M = 13.53
Hero (MP2): t94487 M = 16.43
strip23 (CO): t42650 M = 7.42
Mikleler (BTN): t137713 M = 23.95
ACE0219 (SB): t90495 M = 15.74
DutchPoker23 (BB): t31345 M = 5.45
bluemoon1973 (UTG): t24588 M = 4.28

Pre Flop: (t5750) Hero is MP2 with 6d 4d
3 folds, Hero raises to t5000, 1 fold, Mikleler raises to t11500, 2 folds, Hero calls t6500

Flop: (t28750) 9c 7d 3d (2 players)
Hero checks, Mikleler bets t14087, Hero raises to t35174, Mikleler raises to t125963 all in, Hero calls t47563 all in

Turn: (t194224) 5c (2 players - 2 are all in)

River: (t194224) Qh (2 players - 2 are all in)

Final Pot: t194224
Hero shows 6d 4d (a straight, Three to Seven)
Mikleler shows 6s 6h (a pair of Sixes)
Hero wins t194224

This is a hand from Sunday Kickoff between two Russian MTT regulars who presumably have a lot of unknown history with each other, but not in this particular tournament. Mikleler is considered to be more on a tight side, Hero is more splashy and aggressive and tries to outplay his opponents. Both are profitable players at these stakes. Hero just doubled up, and this is his first raise at the table.

A topic about this hand on a Russian forum already reached 8 pages. The big question is: who played this hand worse? Can we justify calling a 3bet with 6-4? Can we justify Mikleler's flop line? We don't know their reads on each other, is it important here?

Feb. 19, 2013 | 5:02 p.m.

Weaker hands that call your river bet: A10, 44. Discount some sets because they might have raised somewhere along the line, and discount a lot of A10 due to our blockers.

Draw hands in his range - broadway draws, his actual hand, some A-wheel stuff, all of those often have hearts. Most of his draws missed, so he plays his drawing hands perfectly against our bet.

Therefore I lean towards check-deciding by the opponent's river sizing and timing, and will usually call.

Feb. 14, 2013 | 10:15 p.m.

With deep stacks it is critical to play most pots in position. You may also want to learn the math of backdoor draws, they become increasingly valuable as the stacks get deeper.

Your question sounds a bit contradictory to me. If you have a marginal hand, you should not be worried about being outdrawn, your hand is by definition quite weak and does not need protection. Checking marginal hands with intention of going to showdowns cheaply is a standard play. When facing a bet with a marginal hand, you should consider various turn cards that significantly improve your equity or allow you to credibly rep hands you don't have. If most turns suck, and the opponent is aggressive, just save money and fold.

Feb. 11, 2013 | 7:38 p.m.

Well, I think if you are playing in a game where people 3-bet only aces, you are doing something wrong with your table selection. And even then I'm pretty sure folding AA56 is a mistake, because you'll have at least 31% equity 3 way, and you will still be a favorite against the button's hand for the sidepot, even with two aces being dead.

Feb. 9, 2013 | 7:33 a.m.

Very very standard call pre, even when he's Brazilian and is 3xing.

Really tough to play postflop when SPR after he calls our cbet is 1. I'd probably just give up on most turns, not because it's an optimal play (hard to guess one without reads), but because the situation sucks, and I'd better spare my stack for something more promising... Maybe someone brave like betudontbet would shove turn and get a ton of folds?

Feb. 7, 2013 | 7:57 p.m.

I like calling a 3bet, we are OOP but should flop dominating draws a ton. Then we flop the world, and the opponent gives us a chance to raise flop for value. I think I'd do just that, he should peel enough dominated hands, and those he folds will often have decent equity against our one pair. And I don't see the minbet/raise pot line nearly enough to worry about it in such spots. If he is still there on the turn, I'll fire another one.

As played, we totally turn our hand to a bluffcatcher, so check-call and decide on the river.

On a side note, I really doubt anyone (apart from the very top regulars of PL1k+) can show a profit on PL100 playing with 46 VPIP, so treat this guy as an aggro fish.

Feb. 7, 2013 | 6:40 p.m.

Comment | Misha Savinov commented on PLO60 River Spot
He rarely has AA, KQ, AJ, JT on the river and shouldn't value bet two pair hands anyway. Fish may or may not fold a pair of aces to a river bet, and this is not a huge fraction of his range, so I don't like bluffing. (May be wrong about the number of bare A combinations though.) After we check he should bet flushes and some air, so I guess check call is in order.

Feb. 7, 2013 | 6:21 p.m.

MentalMuscle, yes I was planning to raise and 4bet shove my hand. I'd have to fold to a 3 bet shove from the CL, though.

As I don't have an open shove range with stacks above 14-16 bb in my game, it's hard for me to discuss this line from math standpoint. However, I have a story about it, not really relevant to the hand above, but anyway. A very good friend of mine was playing WSOP ME (2012) and made it to the top 200 or so. He had a really aggro table, and he is also a kinda crazy aggro guy. So he wakes up with 5-5 under the gun with 28 big blinds, thinks briefly about being 3bet and cold 4bet light, and just ships the whole stack. Sam Holden to his left has queens, gg. Once again, not really relevant to the situation, but it kinda hurts to burn a decent stack like this. So I don't do this for the sake of emoEV :)

Feb. 7, 2013 | 6:12 p.m.

Anything between 4 and 6 tables, might be fun to include one or two tournaments from level 1, like Sunday 500 or SM. Feel free to make fun of the opponents and stuff, creative freedom is awesome. Thanks for cool videos!

Feb. 7, 2013 | 5:54 p.m.

I am really inclined to open fold this preflop. Both blinds are quite active, we are super deep, our hand is a nice-looking trash, so we almost never can afford stacking off for 250-300 bb no matter what we flop. I really doubt it can be played profitably under these circumstances.

As played, I like to call and make a decision on the river. Our hand it not strong enough to raise get it in, and we are too strong to fold. And we have enough good river cards even if he continues barreling. See no other play.

Feb. 6, 2013 | 12:01 a.m.

Kinda counterintuitively, but when you pot it, you gives some villains more incentive to bluff with 8 or Q blocker. They wouldn't mind play straightforwardly to a half pot valuebet, but become greedy and bluff happy to a PSB.

Feb. 5, 2013 | 3:20 a.m.

I'd hate this 3bet with effective stacks 120 bb and less, however, it seems more acceptable this deep, because we don't have to fold to a 4bet.

On the flop it is not exactly 3way, because you are also heads up with UTG for a 200 bb sidepot, and your equity against his range ((QQ,Ad*d)!AA) just sucks, so it's a trivial tough fold :)

Feb. 4, 2013 | 12:38 p.m.

Thank you all for the thoughts. I shoved and just ran into aces for the second consecutive time. Apparently, it was unavoidable, given the situation, and is overall quite a standard play. However, sometimes we have to re-check our standard lines, because the game is evolving constantly, with all that button limping suggested by Ansky on 2p2 here and there, so I made the thread.

Feb. 4, 2013 | 12:11 p.m.

I think pushing A6o (36:30) is very borderline +cEV play, shouldn't we be more conservative with our pushbot because it's a final table? Or this is more of a reason to push, because people will call absurdly tight?

Feb. 1, 2013 | 10:17 p.m.

Post | Misha Savinov posted in Chatter: Mixed games videos?
Are you planning to get some of those? There is a lot of action at 8 game on Stars, would be fun to watch.

Feb. 1, 2013 | 11:20 a.m.

Totally agreed with Jamie Wilby!

I think feeling offended by David's comments in any live video is really dumb.

Feb. 1, 2013 | 11:16 a.m.

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