ifiwasu

This is getting an interesting discussion :)

I can see now I took probably the worst option on the flop by check/calling and waiting for a safe turn card. Now I was just lucky to catch one of the few good turn cards and get it in vs T8o, even though I won the hand I wasn't sure that I played it correctly.

But I'm still not really sure if we want to c/r here or donkbet. The upside of a c/r like TheLove_Below said is that we are going to scoop a lot of dead money a good percentage of the time, the downside however is that when someone reraises or shoves we're commited and I'm not getting it in very happy in this spot.

If we donkbet and just get called we can be pretty sure that we have the best hand at that point and bet big on most turns and potentially get it in, if our donkbet gets raised I think its a fold, like I said before I don't think these villains raise with a worse hand than ours. 

So I'm leaning towards a donkbet now, I expect villains to play very fit or fold when I lead big into them in a 4-way pot so I'm getting a pretty clear picture to see if we're beat or not and still get a lot of value. A c/r however feels a bit more like "jamming in the dark"

The reasons for a lead are clear to me now, but I don't really understand the rest of your post. 

We can easly donk/c and XC any turn...we barely get 3barrel bluffed OTR after that line and have easier decisions.....  After leading the flop, why do we want to x/c any turn? And is the flop really a donk/c and not a donk/f spot? I don't see villains raising FD's,SD's or 2pairs when I lead in to them in a 4-way pot.

Also interested!

24 year old and also from the Netherlands.

I play zoom 25/50NL and play a minimum of 13 hours per week, I've been in more study groups over the past years but none of them lasted longer than 6 months because of people quitting etc.

Don't know if you guys already exchanged skype addresses but if its okay that I join could one of you send me a PM?

Hoping to hear from you guys :)

Thanks.

Very clear explanation BigFiszh! Thanks.

I feel like in these spots that I'm more looking for a reason to just call and not fold my set, so I tell myself shit like; "He probably would have raised a bigger set on the flop so I just ship it in and call it a cooler if he does have a higher set."

While the correct way to approach these kind of situations is; "Ok, he's totally not aggressive, is a stationy player with a very low agg and high WTSD, what could he possibly raise here that I beat?" If I understand you correctly.

I already kinda felt that my thought process was ridicules so that's why I specific asked for that in my post, and man!!! I was way off in this one!!

Your post really helped me out BigFiszh.

Edit

Sorry, forgot to post that. 421 hands total, the 3bet vs EP was over 36 events

Yep, agreed.

Yeah I think you're right, probably a leak of mine but I mostly just call the most percentage of the time in these spots and let villain barrel his range. But I can see him calling with most of his aces and broadway FD cards. So I can see its a good play to raise here with a flopped flush.

+1, was thinking about the same, I still need to practice on breaking down the hand a little better in my comments :P

I think I'm calling the turn here and make a decision OTR, I mean; why would villain raise a flush OTF? 

So I think his range holds enough semi-bluffs on the turn for us to make the call. I'd probably fold to a decent river bet, also on a blank river. 

Ok, very clear! Thanks.

A big leak of mine was that I didn't valuebet light enough on the river, so I'm working hard now to plug that leak but going to thin on the river is part of the learning proces I guess  :P

ok interesting, where did i go wrong in my thought process? Do you think he will bet a lot more Ax type hands for value or is his bluffing range a lot wider and does it include small pairs etc.

Flop & turn are fine imo, OTT we're still ahead of his turn barreling range (AK, AQ, a pair with a draw like QJ,QT and some draws) 

Unless this guy has a very high river agg I think I can get away here on the river, we hold the ace of clubs which means he doesn't have a lot semi-blufing combo's that he barrels 3 streets. (maybe 89cc sometimes)

So I don't think his bluffing range OTR is that wide, sometimes 89cc and some of the time a hand like QT that he decides to turn into a bluff on the river.

So the river is most of the time a value bet with a better hand than ours, AA,TT,JJ KQ sometimes 33. 

When he's holding a hand like AK AT JT A3, I think he's more likely to check behind on the river or bet the river smaller. 

Ow, next time leave the result out of the hand when you post it. That way you're sure you don't get any result oriented comments. 

I've recently played both 25 & 50NL Zoom and I didn't notice that much of a difference. My overall winrate on both limits was something like 4-5bb/100, and as said I didn't notice a big difference.

Anyway, a while ago I switched from ZOOM back to the regular tables at the same stakes and the regular tables are so much softer!! I've planned to stick to the regular games as my winrate is so much bigger there, the volume I can make in ZOOM games doesn't make up for my winrate on the regular table's.

In these spots I'm mostly just calling this flop, to be honest I don't see a lot of downsides to a call. 

I don't think that we have that much FE when he donkbets a board like this one, we keep all the draws that we dominate in his range and he won't fold very often if the club hits (OTT).

When we do raise the flop and he calls he's likely gonna fold a lot hands when we make our flush.

As played; I think I'm calling this turn, as Kevin said he will definitely call a small to medium bet on the river when we hit. 

ok, thanks for the feedback guys.

ok, totally agree with you guys that a 3bet is bad in this spot. 

So I called the flop raise and the turn came a K (non club), I checked and he bets, I folded pretty quickly and wasn't that happy with my fold. I mean; its an overcard to my pair but its a card that he's going to barrel with the biggest part of his range + I don't see that much K's in his range.

So is the default plan in these kind of spots to just call him of when the board doesn't bring a club or a straight card?

Is a fold here really that bad guys? The only hand that really makes sense to me is a 5x hand. Don't see this kind of a player do this with Qx QQ or FD's.

And I think A5s is definitely in his range and maybe a 56s sometimes.

I mean, any other hand just doesn't make sense and maybe he thinks he can get some nice value vs AA,KK or a draw.

Really like this vid! I play the lowstakes NLZOOM myself (25&50NL) and recently spotted in my database that I wasn't defending wide enough in the blinds, just like you said most people didn't. So its really nice to see which adjustments need to be made.

I was wondering what is the optimal fold 2 steal% in the blinds on these stakes? I fold the sb vs steal  ~75% and the bb vs steal ~70%. I think I can still make a lot op progress in these spots by defending just a little more.

About the HUD you shared; Its the standard HM2 default popup as far as I can see, think Swire12345 meant the large white pop-up. Scrolled through the vid a few times but couldn't find it, hope you know wich one I mean cause I would be interested in that one to. 

Yep, there isn't much of evaluating to it, its a +- 1/2pot bet when the flush hits and on any other card its a clear x/f imo. 

Don't see much of a problem when the river brings an A, I think its a clear fold if he bets the river.

ok, I think flop play is fine indeed.

On the turn I decided to make the call and evaluate river just like Edichkal is saying. I think I can get just a little bit more money when I hit the river since his WTSD% is a little higher than most of the players, think he can't lay down a set when I bet around half of the pot on the river.

Think that when he has a WTSD% closer to 20/23% I'd consider just folding the turn, it only just feels so weak to check/fold your nut FD in these spots :P