The thought process here was that on the flop is I am ahead of a lot of hands so bet the range for a small bet. Should I have bet 60% on this board?
Multiway flops do work a bit differently than heads up. There are two ranges you need to keep in mind. In general in muliway action is checked to IP who will bet a small size often. So small size is fine. Your exact sizing might be a bit too low but still good thought proces.
If you want to look into multiway pots a bit more. There's an essential video (you get one month free with FTGU) from coach Qing Yang on multiway pots. It's worth the watch.
Turn hits the set so I'm betting for value and to charge flush draws etc
So did you size up because now you have a strong hand? Or are you applying the theory of Selective Cbetting? When we are more selective in the hands we are betting we are betting a bigger size.
The river is a terrible card in a multi-way pot for our range as flush draws get there however I felt checking behind would be playing scared and could get some value out of hands such as q9, tt, jj, 55, 97 etc so it was more of a blocking bet.
This would be considered going for some small value. When we bet small then they have to call often (see video Pyramidical defense). So forcing them to call their single pair hands as well. Now it might be that they never are. And if they aren't then we would want to bet bigger to get more value from the weaker hands they can have.
Sure they can have a flush but that's no need to play scared. There are plenty of hands that we beat that will call a bigger size such as the hands you listed.
Hi all, first time posting here. Relatively new player and just working through the ground-up course.
How are you liking the course? I loved it.
June 3, 2020 | 6:34 a.m.
We do have position. And we can call with a bunch more hands if we decide to not have a jamming range but go with a calling range.
A reason to slowplay a strong hand such as AA would be SPR is low (4-bet so is true). And we have a wider flatting range (will be true if we make it so).
So you can go with a flat. It just feels ugh when we have KK etc. I personally would go with all-in. But I can see myself creating a flatting range.
June 3, 2020 | 6:21 a.m.
I understand it's a linear 3 bet, which usually doesn't seem like a bad idea at low stakes where they do not 4 bet very often.
If they don't 4-bet often it's more of a reason to 3-bet polarized. Lineair is when we have a 3-bet or fold strategy. Or when they are overcalling.
Polarized is when they are overfolding. Or proceed mostly with calls instead of 4-bets.
More complex than that but a good guideline.
I can see your idea working for early positions. But BTN, SB, BB are going to be 3-betting a lot or a lot of trimming then. In which case you might as well create it normally.
June 3, 2020 | 6:19 a.m.
At the moment I two table zoom so that limits my volume a little but I'd rather put in good volume then bad.
Good mindset. Most journals I see have "Play X hands every Y time" as a goal. But it's not great for working on your game. I myself also started out doing 2 tables of Zoom only. And only increased it to get to the 50k hands faster, which cost me a nicer redline and maybe some profit.
June 2, 2020 | 12:49 p.m.
I definitely think button has more 8x than bb.
Both the ranges from UpswingLab and the ranges from Monkeysolver would disagree.
87o is sometimes defended in the BB not opened on BTN. 89o isn't always opened on BTN (depending on open size) but almost always defended in BB.
The suited 8x combo's are quite close between BTN and BB, favouring BB by a small fraction.
And it makes sense. BB has a blind invested and can call more with these hands compared to BTN opening them. And they aren't in the BB's 3-bet range very often if at all so they aren't excluded from the calling range.
June 2, 2020 | 11:59 a.m.
Good luck! I have outlined my journey to my application in my journal.
I'm going to play a 100k hand sample and then apply starting today 01/06/2020.
Do you have a timeframe to do this? They expect 50k hands/month under the staking. So it might be good to do this before 14/08/2020. They review applications from the 15th to the 20th every month. With that you'll get 50k+/month and be in time for the application proces in August.
June 2, 2020 | 11:33 a.m.
We did it! I had a long weekend and decided to do the push now that I was past the halfway point. 25799 hands in 3 days time for 474.44$ in profit. For 7.36BB/100.
Now I did ran good at the very beginning. It started where I got QQ vs AA all in preflop. Ran it twice and hit the Q twice. I rathole but I click "Sit out next BB", not next hand. The very next hand at that table I get KK in the CO and this happens
Talk about a good start when you're planning on pushing volume. The end result is 837.82$ over 50792 hands. Good for 6.60BB/100 or 5.18 for all-in adjusted.
To start pushing volume more and get to my end of three days finish I started playing 4 tables Zoom. You can clearly see in the graph where I started doing that as my redline just tanked. This is a common issue I have when I start playing more tables and the reason I initially started this poker journal only playing 2 tables.
If I get selected for the staking I'll keep it at 3 tables just to avoid this from happening. Unless they want me to, we shall see.
I'll be making a long detailed post somewhere in the next few days about the bigger hands, lessons learned, and so on. But for now I'll be unwinding and taking a small break as the past three days have been nothing but poker, poker, poker. Now all I can do is hope I get selected!
June 1, 2020 | 5:30 p.m.
Congrats on the kid. I doubt you'll have much free time with a newborn after your parental leave ends. Especially once normal activity in the outside world picks up again.
What can we expect from this journal? What will the updates be about?
The gym is quite small and I have some lower back issues, so deadlifting is not a good option for me.
Aw. It's my favourite compound lift.
June 1, 2020 | 7:39 a.m.
Yay, go me!
Grats to all.
June 1, 2020 | 7:36 a.m.
Grinding poker is somewhat taxing on your body. There have been studies with professional chess players and how they lost a lot of weight during long tournaments. The stress they are put in every day caused this, plus the constant thinking. So now high level chess players have stronger regimens when it comes to nutrition and physical fitness.
A good step forward would indeed be focusing on having a good diet. And after that would come working on your physical fitness. I myself climb (and dive). It not only gives me decent physical shape but it's also a mentally different sport. You're up high, need to keep all attention on the climbing. There's little room for error. And that helps me in poker.
As far as screens go. I can advice f.lux. You set your timezone, when you wake up etc. And it will reduce the screen brightness automaticly. It's a great program.
June 1, 2020 | 7:35 a.m.
I like the flop raise. Good blockers, has outs, and punishes the over cbetters.
and I do think I have way less 8x than the button here because he made it 3x preflop(I think I am folding A8o for example due to rake and facing a 3x sizing)
So you are folding A8o but you are calling J9o? There has to be a flaw in your logic somewhere here tbh. You still have more 8x than BTN. Even if you discount your offsuit ones, you should have more 8Xs compared to BTN.
I think the turn sizing makes sense because it is a sizing I can use with some 8x and flushes.
Don't like it. Just go big or go home. When we make our flush or still have a strong 8x we want BTN to call us for more money. Now BTN has an easy time calling.
When the 8 comes in, how do we determine our bluffs?
River is an ugly card. Cuts our 8x in half. Will be hard to get overpairs to fold. So our target would be flushes and blocking overpairs. So I like the logic you presented and that seems solid.
June 1, 2020 | 7:30 a.m.
I like the flop size. Just apply pressure and push your advantage.
Turn is an ugly card. KK with a spade seems like a fine bet and call it off. Blocking KQss, KJss and still have outs against sets. Sucks if he shows us a flush but so be it.
June 1, 2020 | 6:45 a.m.
Yes. We are targetting the lower straight or hands that he can’t fold such as sets and maybe two pair. Size lower. 2.5x river raise or there about would do. Can go big size with kq to target Qx hands. But not QQ
June 1, 2020 | 6:41 a.m.
Because Tx has more denial of equity of random overcards when it bets. But Kx doesn’t have an overcard that isn’t on the board already.
The more overcards the more these paired hands want to bet. The same is generally true for pocket pairs. You’ll notice lower pocket pairs bet a bit more often.
May 30, 2020 | 10:52 a.m.
We got to the halfway point! Today and yesterday combined I played 3061 hands for 113.25$ profit.
Despite being a winning session it also took a toll on me. Lots of brutal runouts that cost me money by not being able to get value anymore from the range I was targetting. You don't see it at the end but there's a 100BB+ spike.
At the halfway point (24993 hands) we have 363.38$ profit. Gives us a 5.82BB/100.
So I changed my strategy a bit with my opening betsize. What many people do is open big in early positions and smaller in later positions. Because they have a stronger range and want to play a bigger pot. And a wider range so they want a smaller pot.
But the issue there is that with the bigger open size you are also isolating yourself against the opponents stronger range. So the smaller 2.25x open from LJ and HJ gives more reason for others to play against my strong range. And CO, BB, SB will be a bigger size to give them less incentive to play.
May 29, 2020 | 8:35 p.m.
I created a Google Spreadsheet to give you an idea on how their slowplay % and our sizing work.
The formula at the 4th column of a table =(((100-E2)A2)+((E2-D2)(A2+C2))-(C2*D2))/100
Times they fold + times they call and we win pot + out betsize - times they have slowplayed and we lose our bet.
As you can see the lower we go the more profit we would be making in theory. This is because their slowplay% is a set number in those tables. And the smaller we go the more profit we are turning because we beat all the other hands that are now forced to call.
In reality though, SB is not going to call that often. So you would need to look at the MDF mainly. How often can SB call us? Going below that sizing from that point would be losing EV. I have simulated this in the first table. You can compare Column F and G and notice that as soon as your betsize makes SB's MDF go over 0.7 you are starting to lose EV by going a smaller betsize.
So when you think your opponent isn't going to call very often (< 50%) then go for the big size. If you think he will be calling very often (> 70%) go for 1/3th size would be my simplification.
This doesn't keep in mind the few times we ourselves have a monster and SB jams on us with worse and we call it off.
May 29, 2020 | 7:28 a.m.
Given you consider this guy a calling station the flop bet is solid. 5 hands is a low amount to make that judgement but sure, it's your call.
I'm not sure what the point of the overbet on the turn is. We would be isolating ourselves against better hands and folding out a bunch of weaker hands that might have called a smaller bet. A significant enough amount that the bigger sizing doesn't become more profitable. Especially since we would target Qx with this sizing and we are blocking it. Reserve this sizing for AA, KK, lower sets and bluffs.
River then feels super weird to bet this small sizing. You have already isolated yourself against strong hands and now you are OOP with an average holding, unsure what to do.
I like the block bet idea but BTN can raise you here quite hard, as he did, because of the turn play. And QJ, one off the few hands that might have called us, also got there.
Fold seems fine. But would reconsider your turn play.
May 29, 2020 | 6:49 a.m.
Value bet on turn seems best yes. We can check Qx with a heart.
But given we want to float flop and bluff turn sometimes we would also want to valuebet. And this hand is high in our range for paired hands.
May 29, 2020 | 6:42 a.m.
Solid thinking. Seems good.
Just curious and am unsure right now. But I think when we have a backdoor flushdraw in our pocket pair we have less incentive to bet. Because it's less likely we will be outdrawn when we have that. That's the one part in your logic I would disagree with.
May 29, 2020 | 6:37 a.m.
Seems good. Can create a 5-bet shove range but having a calling range is also good. Do keep in mind that when you create a calling range you would want to include some AA.
Flop seems solid. Low SPR so might as well get it in. Even when we get check/raised. I have seen people show up with trash hands or worse pockets here that I would call this off.
May 29, 2020 | 6:35 a.m.
That depends. If we can clearly identify that UTG is overfolding then check/raising all hands becomes profitable. Keep in mind he does have flushes, overpairs with flushdraw, AhTx, sets, Ahx. So I would start bluffing with mainly blockers to those hands and not bluff with hands that block his folding range.
But we would also need to be sure that UTG is not going to counterexploit us after noticing what we are doing. At lower stakes I doubt this will happen though. But we got a good spot where we are making money from this person. If we start exploiting this to the extreme then we are making it clear to UTG what the issue is. So in the short run it will be better to go to the extreme. For long term we would want to only adjust a bit, not to the extreme.
That is mainly advice for higher stakes and smaller player pools. Lower stakes and big player pools you won't get counterexploited often if at all.
May 28, 2020 | 2:54 p.m.
I like the bigger sizing on the flop. We're not cbetting often so when we do we want to already polarize a bit more.
I would still bet turn though. Lots of gutshots, flushdraws and weaker hands that will still call us. As played turn check/call seems more standard. Would go for big size check raises with 8x and gutshots blocking 8Xs as bluffs.
May 28, 2020 | 2:12 p.m.
Multiway and board is bad for our range (as you stated). There's no reason to bet this and start range splitting. If we would start betting this hand then our checking range is getting troublesome.
Xing Yang has a good video on multiway pots. Basicly you want to check very often to IP, IP should bet frequently for small sizing. This would apply pressure to BB as we still have our entire range despite having made most of the pairs here.
Can go for check/call or check/raise depending on BB calling or not. I think if you check out the video you will come to a clear answer.
May 28, 2020 | 2:10 p.m.
Don't want to play 3B pet OOP vs. what I'm assuming is a strong UTG range. Is flatting this a big mistake?
Call is fine.
range-check on this monotone flop. My thinking in game was, UTG range possible for him to have 2 overcards with a heart draw. Want to charge those draws, so I raise, especially vs. his small bet. Even if his bet were bigger, I think I'd still go for a check-raise with top set. Balance this with some made flushes, AT?, flush draws. Would others have a c/r range here, and if so how would they go about constructing it?
Yes, check raise range here is fine. If you look at range constructions then UTG and BB has a disparity in flushes. UTG mainly has nut flushes and some in broadway range. BB has nutflushes, broadway range and the smaller ones. This is not a board UTG can just willy nilly cbet on. Yet people are very often doing so. Given his betsize I would assume this player also is.
Main way of punishing this is by raising and applying pressure. Seems good.
May 28, 2020 | 2:06 p.m.
Seems well thought out. I agree with your flop assessment. Want to not always bet here and go for a bigger sizing.
Turn we can bluff this combination. When we get minraised here I guess we got to peel to hit our 9 outer.
River I would also check back. We do have some showdown here and can win against combodraws or air. I would note that he showed up with 8x here and adjust in the future to always bet big on rivers in this line.