Game Theory´s Instructor's avatar

Game Theory´s Instructor

6 points

I have already been corrected in question three. I asked same question in another forum and received this answer which of course seems logical:

"if we always continue betting on the river, Villain's response will never involve c/c turn, c/f river b/c that would be burning money.  But if Villain's never folding to a river bet, that makes bluffing river very bad.  So, we'll usually need to have bluffs that are giving up on the river if Villain is going to have bluff-catchers that c/c turn, c/f river, which is what we need if we're ever going to bluff river"

Feb. 18, 2014 | 11:34 p.m.

My thinking is this:

1) When betting flop ip you can bet more bluff combos per value hand than when you are being out of position. Reason for that is because you will realize more of your equity on your bluffs when being in position.

2) Bluffing when being out of position is more expensive than when being in position (as GameTheory taught me). Reason for that is the same as above. (He did not explain why)

3) When you arrive to river it is optimal  arriving there with an effective potsized bet left. Reason for that is because you do not need to make an overbet to be allin, and you do not have to risk having money left after betting and therefore having more difficult to create optimal ranges because the risk of being raised.

4) You should aim to have your bluffrange consisting of only good draws on turn like BD draws, flush- and openend straight draws from flop and similar.

I would appreciate if you guys could comment my claims and correct me when being wrong (because I know I probably am wrong in most of my claims since I am a noob when it comes to GTO poker)


Feb. 18, 2014 | 11:23 p.m.

GameTheory. Are you suggesting that he should have check-called flop instead of bet-calling? 

Since he bet flop he must call raise, right? Surely he can not bet-fold flop vs a wild, bluffy player like Blom even if they are 300 BB:s deep. 

What bet-calling range would you recommend him having on this flop?

Feb. 16, 2014 | 6:25 p.m.

With the image and playstyle Blom has I am surprised that that Blom would not insta valuebet top two sets on that river according to WCGRider.

Feb. 14, 2014 | 11:19 p.m.

If hero felt that "opponent is a spazz-aggro-fish that never folds a hand when he starts betting and that there is no need to think about balance because he will never play vs this opponent again", I do not think OP would have posted the hand and asked for advices.

I am probably wrong though, I usually am. :)

Feb. 14, 2014 | 8:48 p.m.

Weird, I posted "I got it now, thank´s" after M Big Fiszh´s last post in this thread. Now that post has been flagged as inappropriate. Anyone knows why?

Feb. 13, 2014 | 9:48 p.m.

I am bad at English and apparently I understood and used the word "indifferent" wrong. Luckily I have understood all along that bluffing hands have equity and that board runouts changes situations and ranges completely :) 

But of course I have been wrong all along though. I did the mistake to assume that the suckouts with bluffs and the bad run outs and so on would even out between the two players. I now understand that this was wrong and I have today learned something new. 

Thank you!

Feb. 13, 2014 | 1:25 p.m.

I dit not try to impress you M BigFizh and I also did not think anyone would be impressed. I only wanted to share my thoughtprocess when constructing a range in this spot to contribute. I honestly did not think that my thinking process was standard among all RIO members.

I will not do it again.

Feb. 13, 2014 | 6:19 a.m.

I just swept thru a bunch of threads just before bedtime and did not believe anyone would get offended. Now I do  know though so I will not do it again.

Feb. 13, 2014 | 6:13 a.m.

No, I did not think anyone would get offended about me posting a few more responses quick just before bedtime.

Feb. 13, 2014 | 6:06 a.m.

I have not read all the responses and I am tired now so maybe I have missunderstood your discussion some, but here is my response anyway:

When opponent has risked money to get into a good bluffing spot it is ok for us to fold more than the treshould amount. If he three bets us pre for instance, then he risked money to get to a good bluffing spot post flop. If he then bets 50 percent of pot on flop it is ok if we do not defend 2/3

Feb. 12, 2014 | 11:44 p.m.

It depends how your raising range looks like. Normally you would like to bet flop with a polarized range and have about 2, 5-3 (depending on equity) bluff combos for every value combo when being in pos on flop. 

Feb. 12, 2014 | 11:27 p.m.

The pupil has now become the master....

Feb. 12, 2014 | 11:18 p.m.

It is much more fun and lucrative to use tells to trick your opponents to make bad decisions. Work on that instead. Something I often use vs fishes is reversed psychology. Or leveling them with pretending to be weak when you really are weak, and so on.

Feb. 12, 2014 | 11:10 p.m.

I have not read the responses and do not know if this has been said before: It is pretty simple really, you should NOT use all nut type hands in your overbet range. All ranges must of course be balanced. 

Feb. 12, 2014 | 11:05 p.m.

You have not shared any of your ranges here but I am guessing this should be an easy fold. You should have alot of better hands to call with in this spot.

Feb. 12, 2014 | 11:01 p.m.

If you have many bluffs in your range on this river (you probably have enough)..overbet.  If your range is very strong, do not overbet.

I am not sure that your oop check turn range is strong enough when leading with top par x kicker though. 

Feb. 12, 2014 | 10:55 p.m.

 If you have have enough bluff combos in your range to reraise on flop, reraise, if If "he never ever bluffs in this spot" on river, exploit him and fold. If he can bluff sometimes, call river. If you do not have any idea, call river.

Feb. 12, 2014 | 10:43 p.m.

If you bluff-raise this turn sometimes, raise, if not, call.

Feb. 12, 2014 | 10:10 p.m.

Gross spot but you have to call when he bets that small. 

Feb. 12, 2014 | 10:05 p.m.

You said it yourself. If you fold this hand you are folding too much in these spots. You are in the top of your range.

Feb. 12, 2014 | 9:59 p.m.

It is impossible to figure out what your line should look like since we do not know how your three bet range looks like. My guess though is that range vice and balanced vice, your line is perfectly fine if you called river with a hand that should be in the top of your range after the line taken.

Feb. 12, 2014 | 9:55 p.m.

In spots like this (when you are clueless) I think it best to forget about opponent´s range and just base your decision on if your own range. In this case you should call with 48 percent of your range.

Feb. 12, 2014 | 9:20 p.m.

I do not agree that choosing AA to check back with to protect your checking range is bad. I would sometimes have AA in my checking back range here vs unknown opponents and even more often when having the read you had. 

I would not raise river without a even better read though. 

Feb. 12, 2014 | 8:42 p.m.

The day when I am qualified enough to proof read your posts will probably never come. :)

Feb. 12, 2014 | 8:11 p.m.

GameTheory, this is not what I taught you."if you have all 36 combos of KJ/KT still in your range after calling the turn, this hand should be high enough in your range to call."  

Feb. 12, 2014 | 7:48 p.m.

Yes, I know that there is a "general poker" section  in the chatter forum that covers almost everything but I believe that the theory discussions will pick up better here if RIO takes my advice.

By doing this we also give the RIO theory geniuses a chance to share their knowledge better. :)

Feb. 12, 2014 | 5:32 p.m.

Isaac, the time has come, I have nothing more to teach you. It is now time for you to take the final step and share the knowledge with the rest of the world. 

Feb. 11, 2014 | 9:18 p.m.

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