The question about the sizing is important here. Was 3x? 4x? 5x?
Because in a MW-pot TT basically looses its whole value as a strong pair. HU this would always be an easy call as we will be able to play TT as a semi-strong-pair postflop still.
But MW we will basically play it for setmining only (more or less). So we a) want to have the straight odds for a call (which we often dont get) or b) want villains to have deep stacks to gain implied odds.
So the bigger the 3bet the worse are a and b!
And also: more money in the pot incentives the players behind us to jam already preflop, which is is kind of a disaster for TT.
So we would esp be in trouble here if players behind are short.
Aug. 1, 2021 | 6:15 a.m.
State of the art would be using hand2note for this.
But i guess you would need a subscription for around 20$/month.
Seems too expensive to me for the limit you play. But H2N is basically the advanced version of pokertracker or holdem manager.
It is especially good for pool analysis or range-visualization.
July 31, 2021 | 1:13 p.m.
What was the 3bet-size pre? Pretty close call i guess, but vs several passive players would be fine.
But im not really a fan of your raise OTT. Pretty natural spot to be checked thorough OTF with all strong holdings.
So raising TT for value OTT looks too thin and given the price i wouldn’t raise it as a bluff either.
So a pretty clear call imo and mostly a fold OTR vs most sizings.
July 31, 2021 | 11:23 a.m.
You can create an alias in PT4 that includes all players that you player against in your database.
So you can then use these numbers to create specific ranges or habits for certain spots.
But both steps are somewhat tough work, but might be worth to get a grasp on your pool.
July 29, 2021 | 10:14 a.m.
I would say start with decent preflopranges…
Still money to be made with decent starting hands and solid ABC-style to begin with.
You might check out the learning paths here for studying specific spots.
As you already read the book of peter clarke, i would also recommend his videos as well the videos from tariq and Henry. A lot to gain from an essential account here!
No real need to already start with solverwork for these limits i would say.
But if you want to start to work with tools like this, you might check out GTO+
July 28, 2021 | 3:13 p.m.
Beside the fact that we sometimes structure ranges differently oop (esp in BB), you shouldn’t forget that the equity-realization (EQr) will be around 10-15% lower playing opp.
Position has a decent impact on the money you can extract from certain hands in the longrun.
So even if we would play a similar range than any other position, we still would prefer to avoid playing this spot postflop at all as a lot of 0ev hands in our range in fact become -EV.
So 3betting bigger also helps us to avoid playing marginal regions of our range oop that we in fact otherwise would be better of folding.
But even hands that are +EV plays oop still make more money by making villain fold a decent chunk of equity already preflop.
Edit: btw…gto wizard also raises from 2.5x to 9x ip and 11x oop.
July 28, 2021 | 11:53 a.m.
But if we look at the chosen sizing, i expect this bet to be more polar.
So this might indicate more of a nuts or air range that bets here.
So in this case i would rather not bluffjam this combo (even though its a nice candidate to do so).
So maybe we could just hit the RNG and split between calling (ranges are still whide here) and folding (as most pools just dont triple enough).
July 28, 2021 | 11:35 a.m.
I guess flop can go either way. I would rangebet this for 1/3 as well, but creating a checking range here oop and cbeting bigger then should also be fine.
Just dont cbet range for this sizing.
Turn indeed feels close as people flat a AK a lot in MP vs SB.
So i dont mind checking or betting. Maybe checking combos without hearts a little more often?
River i would lean towards blockbetting. Not too many 6x in both ranges and after the turn check not too many 2p either.
As played: im snapfolding this….
July 27, 2021 | 4:57 a.m.
You are totally right that we size up in polarized spots preflop and postflop and thats the main reason why we size up our 3betsizing esp if we play the from the BB.
The explanation for this is quite trivial:
Either we have a strong hand and want to maximize value or we are bluffing and want to gain fold equity. Both reasons prefer a bigger sizing of a bet or raise!
This will be a consistent sheme in basically every spot.
July 26, 2021 | 3:19 p.m.
Interesting approach to go for 3/4 OTT as well (OTF makes sense to me). But most sims I looked at are usually sizing down turns that bring several draws.
Would be interested to know how thin you go OTT with 3/4?
Looks like you are only allowed to bet flushes and bluffs then, right? I still want to bet straights and maybe even sets here and so usually choose the smaller sizing for my whole betting-range to simplify
July 23, 2021 | 9:26 a.m.
I totally agree on this and thats why i would attack this small cbet on a high frequency as well.
One more thing that crossed my mind: shouldnt be hero the one lacking of strong hands here?
All these SCs are on a decent frequency 3bet pre in BB. 77/88 on a low frequency.
So SB will have all sets/2p/straights while the amount in heros range is reduced in a SRP?
Just didn’t understand the statement that „SB lacks of strong hands here in general“
July 21, 2021 | 11:08 a.m.
Usually our X/R will be somewhat polar: ie we play a superstrong hand or a bluff (usually with decent equity) this way.
Not quite sure what to make of a limp/call in HU tbh....But my gut tells me that X/R AA on this flop would still be a bit thin, regardless of the suits, because Villain still can have some 2p or strong draws...Sure: Blocking the nutflushdraw (+ holding the BDFD if we are behind) would want to make us XR a bit more in general....
July 21, 2021 | 10:46 a.m.
I agree on this. Overbetting announces usually nuts or air and we for sure want to have still a whider betting range on this turn than the NF for value.
How many sizings do you play in this spot? I really like having a range here for 1/3 so I can bet more thinly.
So I guess I would play it like Brokenstars and opt for the overbet OTR.
But I guess your line should be fine as well.
July 21, 2021 | 9:47 a.m.
Not quite sure how you get to the conclusion that Villain lags off strong holdings on this board?
Its BvB so he will have the same amount of straights/2p (maybe a bit less 84s/74s)/sets as you, right? + all the combos of overpairs.
I still like your raise OTF anyways as 1/3 on this board still doesn't seem to be a good sizing. And your hand qualifies good for raising in relation to Luke Johnsons categorization:
1. Poor SDV
2. Decent Equity
3. Semigood blockers to folding/continuing-range
So it looks like a decent candidate for attacking a 1/3 bet (that we are supposed to raise more frequently anyways).
July 21, 2021 | 9:42 a.m.
Hello and welcome to the forums. Im far off being a HU specialist, but my 2 cents on this hand would be, that I would usually go bigger pre (like 3-4BB; even more if Villain is deep as well).
Flopcbet and sizing look fine to me.
But without the Ac in my hand I would mainly check (/call) the turn. But I guess betting is ok as well in HU.
But the river looks like a fairly easy fold to me. Not sure what kind of stakes this is, but we are facing a 4x overbet here OTR.
This sizing is heavilly under bluffed in microstakes and small stakes.
And even beside this fact: To not be exploitable, we would need to defend around 20% of our range here. Your preflop-raising range should contain a lot of boats/straights/2pairs/trips and flushes on this runout. So even from a GTO-perspective we don't need to defend this whide. Could become close holding the Ac, but im sure this combo of AA will always go into the muck.
July 21, 2021 | 9:36 a.m.
Which site do you play where opening 3x is standard?
In my experience in most pools opensizes from 2-2.7 are more standard.
Beside liveplay obv where even 8x can be standard.
July 20, 2021 | 11:22 a.m.
This is summed up pretty well.
Even though i would not compare this scenario too much with a squeezing spot.
Its quite a difference to already have twice player entered the pot.
I would cut out some edge hands that have pure playability and dont flop robust equity often.
My example would be A4o on the BU. This is a vacuum RFI for me but i would usually fold it vs an unknown limper.
Sure: any info on limper or the blinds might change this again.
July 19, 2021 | 8:45 a.m.
If you have an essential account here at RIO i recommend the first video of Shaun Pauwels as he analyses UTG vs BU coldcalls.
CO range might be kind of similar.
This will usually be a spot where we check a lot on most boards as villain has so many Pairs for coldcalling.
However: Kxx boards seem to be an exception as villain has a real disadvantage in the Kx region pre.
So with 2BDSD and several overcards to barrel, i guess cbetting this board is still fine (if we keep on agression on good runouts).
July 18, 2021 | 4 a.m.
Did you already compare the defined preflop-ranges?
Not familiar with solver+ and which openingsize this tool uses.
So if we have different open sizes and therefore different preflop-ranges, the solutions will be quite different already.
July 17, 2021 | 2:38 p.m.
I guess the decision has to be made first: are we going to raise and fold or to raise and call?
If we are unsure about this, we should stick to a call OTF imo.
HUD-stats are pretty useless over this sample and this would make me lean towards calling flop and move on from there.
Calling or shoving the 3bet OTF looks super marginal to me vs a basically unknown player.
July 16, 2021 | 6:24 p.m.
This is a pretty good question imo and im not entirely sure.
I would guess that the answer will be yes and no.
I doubt that these tools are able to calculate the EV of a certain hand/range over a huge subset with a decent amount of betsizes.
But still it has to take postflop equity into account.
So i would guess that the engine recalculates the range v range equities with the algorithm similar to flopzilla. So how perform ranges vs each other without concrete postflopactions over a huge sample of boards (like 10k+) and so calculate the GTO-approach for certain parameters (stackdepth, tendencies, etc).
This way we could convert backwards from equities to EV again.
But this is just my 2 cents…
July 16, 2021 | 7:25 a.m.
Agree with GTO Warrior here
We shouldn’t underestimate how a UTG 3bet-defends-range interacts with this board:
Villain might have all 9 sets, 2 2pairs and 3-12 combos of AQ/AJ each OTF.
OTR villain will also have 2 combos of KQs/KJs added and an amount of X combos of AK and straights.
This board is not as a slamdunk for your range as we might think at first glance.
Not to mention that some guys also play like KK/AA this way „for deception“.
People simply dont 4bet (and fold) enough preflop and postflop and will wake up with a lot of stuff OTR that can call your shove.
July 15, 2021 | 6:38 p.m.
This is too nitty imo even at NL2
And given the positions and the sizing im happily just shoving this pre…
There is no need to play a hand like QQ for setmining here.
Villains sizing is pretty bad as it forces you to shove or fold.
So this is hell for 99/AQs, but heaven for hands like QQ/AK
July 15, 2021 | 6:03 p.m.
I like this. we also block A2hh and so the amount of 2x is super low, while he polarizes somewhat OTR.
9 is kind of meh as it gives some of his bluffs SDV, but i still think this line is fine here.
A7 still a better bluffcatcher than 88/TT as you pointed out already.
I guess we prefer heroing vs a bigger sizing as our range looks abit face up.
So im afraid that a smaller sizing will be more of a TP often while a polarized bet includes more bluffs.
July 15, 2021 | 9:20 a.m.
Some different Questions up in this thread. So first of all: The strict guideline to simply never call 4bets is somewhat outdated. Its still not the worst strategy for beating the micros i guees (esp. due to rake), but this strategy offers several problems (esp. in later Positions) that are highly exploitable. And exploiting the „Fold to 3bet“ tendencies is happening a lot even at the small/ mid-stakes.
If your pool is 4betting like 3x fairly often, you should be happy about it and exploit this heavilly: because vs this sizing we can simply stick back to never call and just fold or shove.
To give a concrete gudeline on the hands you mention is fairly complicated tbh. Because how to react with hands like QQ/AK is related to Positions heavilly.
So folding AKo in MP vs a 4bet of UTG of 3x seems decent for the micros.
But folding AKo in SB vs a 4bet from the Button will be a mistake vs most players.
I expect snowies Ranges to be kind f decent, but basic rule for the micros is that people dont bluff enough. If they are then choosing a big sizing, overfolding hands like JJ/QQ/AKo is fine for most spots. Dont worry that people pick up on this and start to exploit you.
Looking forward to your concrete examples!
July 14, 2021 | 10:57 a.m.
Looks fine to me. KQX-boards offer several strategies and betting selective for a bigger sizing is fine. From a geometric PoV i would still go a bit smaller, maybe like 8,x.
So we are not waking up with below 1/2 pot OTR to bet.
Anyways: River can go either way here theoretically: bet or X. I dont quite get your reasoning for avoiding a bluff by betting ourselves.
As we unblock hearts, checking is an option as we want villain to find bluffs. Shoving also becomes a bit thin OTR.
But most players are not willing to bluff missed FD and given the board and positions its even hard to have a FD that didn’t pair up to the board.
So i expect a lot of check backs from villain here from hands that we beat.
So even if it is thin,i would still play it the same: try to milk KJ/AQ/QJ/AT or whatever.
Given the stackdepth a X/F is out of the question imo.
A heuristic for this spot to me is: if we are going to call a river shove 100% of the time, because the SPR is far below, im usually just shoving myself as ppl dont bluff here often.