RoleTide's avatar


426 points

I enjoyed the discussion and I really struggle to do this during my study time. I need to get out of my own head and get some different perspectives.

July 14, 2021 | 4:42 p.m.

Great video! The turn frequencies with the K7 hand really opened my eyes. I didn’t expect to see such high river frequency when we choose the larger turn sizing. Would love to see a follow up video on this spot.

July 14, 2021 | 3:48 p.m.

My biggest struggle thus far...
It is difficult to just make a pair in NLH. Top pair top kicker is pretty much the nuts in a lot of situations. Of course, this changes with the board texture but we rarely make big hands. Therefore, we can profitably value bet hands like A hi on dry boards or 2 pair on wet boards. Our value range is made up of a lot of non nutted hands. Not surprisingly, one of the biggest leaks for many NLH players is not value betting thinly enough. Scare cards come and many prefer to check down their hand. This lack of "thin" value betting has a huge impact on profits and makes our range much easier to play against. I struggle with this when playing heads up. This was something Steve Paul noted during my session review. I didn't adjust my betting to the weaker pre flop ranges.

The "Great Game" is a different beast though. Having twice as many cards to work with gives us much stronger hands post flop. We are making a bunch more sets, straights, flushes, and full houses now. We manage to backdoor a ton of strong hands. However, the best players still know how to extract value with their non nutted hands. The difficult part for NLH players is that our value range looks a little different in PLO. The adjustments to our value range seem obvious on the surface but I constantly find myself in muddy waters. My instincts fail me all the time. I constantly bet parts of my range that should be checked and find myself checking parts of my range that should be bet. I feel lost frequently. It is not a good feeling to be honest.

Fortunately, we have the technology available to get immediate feedback on our decisions without paying a high price. I am feeling more confident after spending some time with a GTO trainer. For those trying to learn a new game...I would recommend just playing against the robot overlords and learning game theory fundamentals through a book or video series.

June 17, 2021 | 8:34 p.m.

FlorinCJK Your example is exactly why I chose to start studying PLO. In my online NLH player pool, most of the 500nl tables or higher contain 1 Rec and 5 Regs. It is very rare to get a table with 2 weak players. However, in my online PLO player pool, most of the 500plo tables contain 2-3 Recs and 3-4 Regs. Now these Recs are losing 25-50 bb/100. Therefore, I can be a breakeven or slightly losing player to the Regs and still have a solid win rate at the PLO tables. The live PLO tables are even better.

I am not really concerned with the variance of the game. I understand that it is higher and can come with frequent 20 buy in swings. I will always have at least 100 buy ins when playing PLO...unless I am taking a shot at a good game with a whale. I will also still be playing NLH and can rebuild my roll as needed.

Unfortunately, I am at a point in my career where being the best player is not my current goal. I am just trying to win the most money in the games available to me. I don't have access to many games above 5/10. Therefore, I am just trying to keep my head above water against the Regs, and print money from the Recs. In reality, I am pretty much a Rec for the majority of the year.

June 16, 2021 | 2:33 p.m.

Aquila My results have been pretty good while playing PLO. I got in around 5k hands and won 5 buy ins. I was up 10 buy ins very quickly and then went through an 8 buy in down swing. I played a few more sessions after the big downswing and won 3 more buy ins. I think I ran well over that small sample, and it is not representative of my win rate.

That being said, I have decided to reduce my PLO live play for now. I am embracing the technology available and just using a GTO trainer while doing my theoretical work. I get way more out of watching a theoretical video, on something like 3bet pots, and then repping that spot on a trainer; compared to trying to apply that theory into my live play. The problem with live play is that you have to play so many hands to simulate the spot studied from the theory video. Live play just seemed like a waste of time for my overall goal and cutting into my profits. In my opinion, one hour with the trainer is better than 5-6 hours of live play at this stage of my development.

June 16, 2021 | 2:11 p.m.

Great video! I am working through your "From the Ground Up PLO" course and this video compliments your series very well.

June 6, 2021 | 3:11 p.m.

I have played more 400 to 500 big blind pots in the past 4 days at PLO than I have in the past year at NLH. Nice to be on the good side of this 525bb pot.

I am still studying preflop ranges. This was a HUGE leak of mine prior to starting this transition. One of the big adjustments I had to make coming from NLH was thinking about pre flop pot odds and equity. It is more difficult to realize our equity when out of position in PLO. Therefore, playing multi way pots with marginal hands while out of position will get you broke very quickly.

I have a very long way to go but, I am feeling much more comfortable at the tables. I have been lucky enough to run fairly well here in the early stages.

June 5, 2021 | 5:17 a.m.

I really like the format and your ability to explain what to do with other parts of your range. Mad respect for taking the advice from Demon and modeling the video after Imba.

June 3, 2021 | 7:28 p.m.

Aquila I appreciate the list of trainers you provided. I will check out each and make a decision soon. I am going to get some coaching after I navigate the "From the Ground Up" series, and get a good feel for the basics.

I really like the course! I am only looking for other resources because I need to rep the theory concepts that I am learning to help them stick. It is nice to watch a video on 3betting from the small blind and then spend a few hours grinding that spot on a trainer. I will pick a trainer once I get through the preflop videos. In all, there are a little over 50 videos and it takes me about an hour to watch and take notes on each video. It is pretty much going to take me the entire month to watch each video only once. There is a lot of quality content for the $$

I am playing 100plo and 200plo. I should consider playing lower while working through the basics, but I think I am pretty close to break even when only playing 2 tables. I am not great but the fish are terrible and just punt stacks. I got into a 3 way all in during a single raised pot on AKJdd. I had AQJT w/ nut bdfd and the other two players just had flush draws. One had TT68dd and the other had AQ98dd. This was a $700 pot at 200plo!! Pots like this will help me keep my head above water.

I have enough games running. I am only playing 2 to 4 PLO tables at a time right now. I can autopilot a couple tables of nlh if I only have 2 PLO tables going. I don't plan to really make any money from PLO until August. I will be happy to just breakeven over this initial stretch. I appreciate your feedback!

June 3, 2021 | 2:28 a.m.

lIlCitanul I think the program has a ton of value for the player type (new PLO player) it is geared toward. I am currently on Episode 12 and we are still navigating pre flop ranges. Emty is very detailed and his videos dive pretty deep into each topic. There are a little over 50 videos in the entire series. Most of the videos are around 40 minutes long and it takes me around 1 hour to get through a video with my own notes. I highly doubt you can find a better intro to PLO series for the $$.

I like that visions is browser based. That means I can use it from my phone while out and about. Thanks for the feedback!

June 3, 2021 | 2:02 a.m.

First observations from trying to study/play PLO.
1.) My pre flop game is terrible. I play wayyyy to many hands.
2.) It takes a lot of mental energy while playing PLO. This is going to be a very difficult transition.
3.) Games are soft but the variance is high.
4.) I constantly value own myself. I think many of the players are passive at this stake with made hands when they don't have the nuts. Therefore, they prefer to check call their Q hi flushes etc...
5.) Blockers are a much more important part of our bluffing range.
6.) It is much easier to tilt when playing PLO.
7.) I probably need to buy something like Vision soon to get in some reps vs. the GTO program. That would be a more cost effective learning experience. I could play smaller stakes but I don't like paying all of the money in rake.

June 2, 2021 | 4:58 a.m.

Post | RoleTide posted in Chatter: NLH to the "Great Game"

For some background info on me check out my previous journal.

I have wanted to transition into PLO for a long time. However, I have never committed to actually studying the game and giving it a real shot. Every once in a while, I would jump into the PLO streets to grind a couple thousand hands. The swings would be wild, and I would drop this pursuit quickly because of "running bad." I am a pretty big loser at PLO over my 25k hand sample, but I am a big winner over millions of hands at NLH. So why make the switch??

I am making this decision for three reasons. 1.) I have a full time job and there is no way that I can study NLH to the level required to be a high stakes crusher. So unless I plan to quit my job (not happening regardless of money), I will be a mid-stakes grinder for the rest of my career. 2.) I am tired of not being able to play in some of the juiciest games around. In my player pools, online and live, the best games can always be found in the PLO streets. I should be able to jump into a good 500PLO game with multiple fish instead of bum hunting the 1-2 fish in the 500NLH puddle. Game selection is key for a part time grinder. 3.) I like the challenge of learning a new game while I have the time this summer. I basically have all of June and July to study and play PLO before I go back to my full time job. I think I can learn the basics over that time period to be able to beat the 200PLO games and jump into the good 500PLO games when available. This will also allow me to jump into any of the live PLO games.

I still plan to play NLH during this time but most of my study and play will be at PLO. Here is going to be my basic routine for the next 2 months.
I plan to have this schedule Monday-Friday.
7-8 am~ breakfast, coffee, get the kids moving
8-9 am~ study PLO
9-11 am~ play PLO/NLH because the games are slow
11-1 pm~ break, lunch, do something with kids
1-2 pm~ study PLO
2-4 pm~ Play PLO/NLH
4-8 pm~ break, dinner, spend time w/ family, bed time routines for kids
8:30-9:30~ study PLO
9:30-11:30~ Play PLO
11:30-12~ Go to bed

My weekend schedule will be dependent on my family. However, I don't plan to study on the weekend. I will be focused on family and playing PLO with any free time. I have just started Emty's "From the Ground Up PLO" course. If you have any recommendations for other material to help me get started please let me know.

June 1, 2021 | 4:24 p.m.

Poker was put on the back burner toward the end of the school year. I was struggling to balance life, work, and poker so I decided to let go of poker until the school year finished out. I have played very little since my last post.

Current Perspective of My Game after 6 Months
The Good
I can crush 200nl and I am a small winner at 500nl. I have a better understanding of GTO, but I am no where near a GTO player. I have a much better understanding of playing SRPs in/out of position, and how to navigate 3bets from the blinds pre/post. I have an understanding of what I am trying to achieve with my bet sizing in SRPs and 3bet pots based on board texture. I have a better plan for turn cards and sizing.
The Bad
I am clueless in 4bet pots, and I haven't really studied them much. The extent of my 4bet study is simply looking at preflop charts. My biggest weakness is playing SBvBB. It is difficult when ranges are this wide and we are out of position. Which is also why I suck at HU. It takes a ton of study time to perform well in this scenario, and I haven't been able to put in the time.

I am not going to crush 500nl anytime soon. Why?? 1.) Limited time to study. This is not my full time job, and I can't keep up with the regulars. Most of the same players play 2knl, 1knl, and they play 500nl. Most of them are better than me, and I won't be able to keep up. I am more or less breakeven against the weaker Regs and losing 1-2 bb/100 vs. the stronger Regs. 2.) The games fill up quickly when a weaker player sits at a table. This means that there is usually only one weak player at the table, and it is hard to get good position. The one weak player goes broke within an hour or so, and the table quickly breaks.

Future Direction
I have decided to finally jump into the PLO pool. I have always loved playing the game, but I have never actually studied it. I am going to commit this summer to beating 200 PLO. I just bought the From the Ground Up PLO course, and I plan to start a new journal to talk about my progress. I will still play NLH when the PLO games are dead but 75% of my play/study time will be dedicated to PLO.

Look for my new journal to keep track of my PLO progress. Good luck at the tables!

May 30, 2021 | 9:04 p.m.

Enjoyed the video but don't ever just bet the amount it takes to put them all in. At the 13:00 mark w/ AA you just got to "slide it all in." Pro tip from Sulsky's last vid. ;)

April 27, 2021 | 3:43 a.m.

Great video and I really enjoy the live play analysis from you. I would love to see a video from you that dives deeper into your reasoning behind going more exploitatively as you have progressed. Maybe a hand review session with some examples would be great.

I am confused as to why you labeled the player around the 11:00 mark a possible Rec because he 3bet BNvHJ from 2.25 to 7? A few minutes later you 3bet BNvLJ from 2.5 to 7.5. Why is his sizing worse than yours?

April 23, 2021 | 2:52 a.m.

Great Job!! What would you say helped to improve your red line so drastically?

April 20, 2021 | 10:59 p.m.

I don't think T9 is the type of hand we want to be 4bet bluffing with. Generally you want to use hands with card removal like A5s, A9s, ATs, KTs, KJs, etc...

Without a read on our villain, I think it is just a fold. Most live players 3bet a fairly linear range that has your hand in a bad spot.

April 20, 2021 | 3 a.m.

I don't like 4betting this hand oop while this deep. Likely just folding pre unless you have a solid read on villains play. This might not be GTO advice but you need to limit your mistakes this deep until you are more comfortable.

April 20, 2021 | 2:53 a.m.

Stacking off is fine here. I would cbet smaller on flop or x/r looking to get it in. As played you are fine and can expect to see a lot of 88-JJ that is "scared" of most turns and some Ah flush draws.

April 20, 2021 | 2:49 a.m.

Brucehero You should probably check that combo

April 20, 2021 | 2:47 a.m.

Great video as usual. I can't wait to see a video with the Pio 2 Trainer. I use GTO+ and I have considered changing over to Pio 2. It would be nice to see it in action. Take care!

April 19, 2021 | 2:44 a.m.

Thanks for the video! The Vision software looks really user friendly. Maybe I need to switch over the the Great Game of PLO.

April 17, 2021 | 4:16 a.m.

Luke Johnson I am the whale as well. I would be just sticking it in here and not think twice about it. :(

April 17, 2021 | 4:04 a.m.

Your river shove is good here.

April 17, 2021 | 3:43 a.m.

I have struggled this month to get in the volume I would like. I have been pretty motivated during my study time, but I am constantly losing focus during my sessions. Therefore, I have quit a lot of sessions early. I have a good habit of just quitting a session when I am not focused. I have played 18 sessions this month, and I have only played 8 sessions over 1 hour long. I quit a couple of sessions early because of family situations, but most of them were simply because I was not focused. I am going to call it an early night to get some good sleep and try to hit the tables with a higher level of focus tomorrow.

Here is my session chart for the month thus far. It started out pretty rough, but I got things turned around.

April 17, 2021 | 3:35 a.m.

Thank you Cory Mikesell that makes a lot of sense.

April 16, 2021 | 1:49 a.m.

It took me a while to come around to just calling the KK hand preflop in the first hand. I was jamming there all day, but I think just calling AA/KK in that situation is indeed a better option. Great job Owen Shiels !

April 15, 2021 | 4:06 a.m.

I like the video review with the solver checks. Great job!

April 15, 2021 | 3:57 a.m.

Great analysis!

April 15, 2021 | 3:46 a.m.

Nice video! I enjoyed watching some deep stack play. Question about preflop play this deep. You opened Q9h this a hand you would open with 100bb or only because you were 200bb deep?

April 15, 2021 | 3:28 a.m.

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