Eldora's avatar

RIO Staff

Eldora

I was about to start a week of studying check-raising spots and wondered why not try something different this time and use the power of the RIO community. Let's just see how it goes.

The idea
- Studying (check)-raising in single raised pots (SRP) in the BB vs different positions on different flop structures
- Using the power of divide and conquer in the RIO community for the theoretical understanding
- Inflate the study with the creativity of the community especially for exploitative adjustments and discussions
- Allow everyone to participate

Tools
- For theoretical foundation any GTO solver (PIO, GTO+, Monker...)
- Any other equity / strategy software (CREV, Flopzilla, Snowie...)
- Player pool experience and logical reasoning

Structure (Might be edited along the road / up for discussion)
- BB vs HJ (from there deviation discussions when facing BTN or UTG instead of HJ)
- BB vs BTN (due to considerable wider ranges)
- BB vs SB (due to IP/OOP shift) -> despite not being check-raising anymore technically I'd like to include this in the study (up for discussion)

Keeping it organized
To achieve the structure I don't want to impose any limitations. Feel free to add any idea/addition/comment to participate. To keep the structure I will export the most valuable contributions and insert them in the main post at the very bottom as documents to keep them handy during the discussions

Video Library (Will be edited)
Of course it would be stupid not to use the knowledge concentrated in the videos supporting this study thread. Let's use this thread to find even small sections of videos that you watch where coaches drop something valuable on check-raising and build a library that ideally goes far beyond the titles and learning paths.
Check Raising the Flop From the BB /w PIO (Paul Atwal) - Essential
Ceck Raising the Flop (Tyler Forrester) - Elite
Facing Flop Checkraise Hand Review (Nick Howard) - Elite

Currently researched
If you want to let the thread know that you will post an analysis on sth specific soon you can comment and I will insert it here until you've finished your review.
--> Eldora: GTO+ review of BB vs HJ for rough flop categories (30 flops)

May 19, 2019 | 8:27 a.m.

Basically one of the first poker books I got my hands on is - Collin Moshman's Sit'n Go Strategy - but despite you already said it - yea I think it might and probably should be quite outdated.

However, it does a good job starting from the very beginning and breaking down concepts like ICM and its relation to SNGs. It's also very practical - probably almost too practical. I've read some critiques that Collin's books tend to be too much like a recipe book and don't make you go down very deep into theory / understanding yourself. But apart from these notes I've enjoyed it a lot as a beginning player and definitely made me a winning player at the old SNGs. It's a pretty entertaining read due to the many practical examples. It might still do the trick today but not sure.

May 18, 2019 | 11:26 a.m.

Cool thx for sharing the structure that's interesting. Yes indeed it's very similar like the 9max turbos I was playing later where the intervals were reduced to 5 minutes as well. Indeed, at least if I remember correctly, rake was a bit lower back then because I think for the regulars it was 10% and for the turbos maybe sth like 7% but this might be off. But at least 20% of the rake seem go to the rakeback directly in your version which is nice.

I believe that what you described should be pretty much spot on. Slower paces definitely leave some more room for more deepstacked postflop plays. I could also imagine that the achievable horuly is the problem in the slower formats but if you feel the fields are softer this could very well make up for it. One important thing that you have to keep in mind but what you surely already know is that chips won are worth much less than the ones you loose especially when we talk about triple barrel bluffs postflop where you end up risking your stack. This makes ICM considerations relevant from the beginning, i.e. not just when shove/folding but even postflop you shouldn't play chip EV but $ EV which could differ quite a bit. In addition it might be that many players still play tighter in the early stages which should make them have much stronger ranges compared to facing a cash game villain in a similar spot.

But tbh it feels pretty out of place me trying to get into strategic advice given how long I've been away from SNGs so take all these thoughts with lots of caution.

May 16, 2019 | 7:57 a.m.

haha as said edges were still sooo big back then that passing up on a lot of small EV and tightening up especially in early stages made up very well if you could just multiply your volume. Plus there was rakeback as hell ;) Check out this youtube vid. You might know boku87 who plays in this video from his bankroll challenge where he turned $100 into $10k in 15 days mass tabling SNGs.

May 15, 2019 | 4:14 p.m.

haha no problem about the flag ;)

So I think Ryan didn't touch exactly on 9max vs 6max traffic. Back in the days (maybe 5-8 years ago) I solely grinded SNGs and these were the days where you could still 20-table from both traffic and skill side (at least at reasonable low stakes) and achieve a solid ROI. I always played 9man regular during the first years (I think blind levels of 10 minutes) where if I remember correctly a SNG lasted for about 1 - 1.25 hours. Then 9man turbos started to become more and more popular (not hyper-turbos) where average duration was something like 30-40 minutes. It was still possible to mass table these but you needed to take some time for registration compared to when I started grinding them where you could literally load 15-20 tables in 5 or ten minutes.

The trend was quite sensible back then to 6max hypers mainly because you started right away at the ICM interesting shove and fold stages which presumably was were lots of the EV advantage came from in SNGs. The default winning low stakes SNG strategy was to play very passive in the early stages and only start to get more active when stacks reached 15-25bbs. From seeing Ryan grind last week it's quite obvious that nowadays and in higher stakes it's not that simple anymore and people play much better. But I think BACK THEN this was the reason for more and more traffic switching to the 6max hypers which I believe were just introduced along the road and not available when I started playing.

Another plus for the 6max hypers was that they basically were the "Sping & Gos" of the time and lots of recreationals were attracted to them for entertaining / fast pace reasons.

But I have not looked into the SNG lobbys for a long time so I'm not sure if this is still valid. Also with stupid spin & gos being introduced there might be a point that they steal more traffic from 6max hypers than from the traditional 9max tables.

And then of course with smaller pools there's just the obvious reason that 6max tables require less tables to start ;) i.e. with 18 entries you can 3table instead of 2table which is a considerable 50% natural traffic increase.

What blind structure are you playing at the 9max? I'd be curious to find out how these are set up today. Presumably much worse than many years ago. When I started out for regular speed you came in with 1,500 chips at I believe 5/10 i.e. with 150BBs :D and rake was about 10% (10 minute blind levels - 5/10 - 15/30 - 25/50 - 50/100 - 75/150 - 100/200 - 150/300 - 200/400...)

Also just a note that Ryan released a video on learning SNG's very recently.

May 15, 2019 | 9:15 a.m.

Although this is old knowledge but back when I grinded SNGs traffic was more and more shifting from 9-man to 6-max hypers and maybe this is still true. Ryan Martin dropped a lot of interesting information about SNGs while grinding them on the charity stream last weekend. Make sure to check it out if you're thinking about spending some of your action in SNGs. He played $60-$200 SNGs throughout the whole stream.

May 14, 2019 | 5:12 p.m.

Always exciting to move - hope you'll have a great time exploring your new living surroundings and good "start" @ the tables

May 12, 2019 | 7:13 a.m.

Hey ding
Betting “all your range“ usually means that the preflop action went down in such a way that on a specific flop your range of hands crushes villain‘s range of hands so much that you can get away with simply betting every single hand with which you get to this point. This of course implies that you don‘t play randomly before but for instance come to a certain spot with for example only the 20% best holdings. This can also be called unselective cbetting because you don‘t actively select hands to bet or check but just bet everything.

Note that there are theoretically only rare spots where you should really bet ALL your range, but it might be optimal to cbet 95% of your range and you can just simplify that to betting 100%.

Selective cbet then just means the opposite. E.g. preflop action and the flop being not that favorable for you so that you have many holdings with which you don‘t want to shuffle money into the pot. Note that most upcoming spots will fall into this category but your cbetting frequency can then range from very low to still moderately high e.g. 75%.

May 10, 2019 | 7:47 a.m.

Hey Djoksi,
I followed up in a private message.

May 1, 2019 | 8:27 a.m.

Post | Eldora posted in Chatter: Top Members for April 2019

Congratulations to our top members for the month of April 2019. Your contributions to the Run It Once forums are greatly appreciated. Members whose name is on either (or both) lists will receive free Elite membership for the month of May. For more information on our monthly leader board and how it works, click here.

Top 5 Users This Month
Demondoink
belrio42
Jeff_
akissv7
Bingo 123

Top 5 Users All Time
ZenFish
GameTheory
Dddogkillah
Saulo Ribeiro
Kalupso

Any questions or concerns with this months list - please email us at [email protected]

May 1, 2019 | 8:17 a.m.

Hey raphten1,
sure let's figure this out. I've sent you a private message here on Run It Once.

April 26, 2019 | 8:53 a.m.

There is some calculation examples related to Equity and EV in the first part of the series but generally it's more focused on concepts than diving into mathematical examples. I still think Peter does a great job of breaking down the logical/mathematical background of the different poker concepts but don't expect slides full of formulas.

However, Steve Paul once did a series on foundational mathematics in poker and if you haven't yet you should definitely check it out:
Math You Should Know: Combinatorics - Steve Paul (Essential)
Math You Should Know: Game Theory - Steve Paul (Essential)
Math You Should Know: Variance - Steve Paul (Essential)

If I recall correctly his series on opening ranges also picks things up from the very basics and is stongly focused on understanding the reasons and math behind opening ranges. This might be of value too.

Designing Preflop Ranges - Steve Paul (Essential)
Designing Preflop Ranges (part 2) - Stevel Paul (Essential)

April 24, 2019 | 8:54 a.m.

I think the reason why Seed2Shade assumed no higher Aces like especially AK/AQ/(AJ) or the higher suited aces (A9s-AKs) in villain‘s range is the preflop play of overlimping.

Of course if the fish probability for unknown is very high on this site it might change but generally I would‘ve put villain on mainly lower suited aces too (regarding his ace-holdings) which indeed shouldn’t give him much reason to bet with into 2 players in a spot where we can check many medium aces ourselves against 2 players to protect our range. On a sidenote though I‘m not sure if we should theoretically check as many of our weak/medium aces in this limped scenario exactly for the reason mentioned above. A9s might be a good value bet here given villains‘ ranges lack the stronger aces.

But I think I still finally agree that having no info about villain makes calling with KK not necessary because he might still sometimes flip around AQo/AJo and we rather want to block this as well to bluffcatch.

April 19, 2019 | 8:02 a.m.

It sounds like this should be valuable for you:

Since You've Been Gone: Pre Black Friday to Now (part 1)
Since You've Been Gone: Pre Black Friday to Now (part 2)

It's a brand new series on things that changed in modern poker over the last couple years and is aimed at helping players to quickly catch up again.

April 18, 2019 | 9:58 p.m.

Hey I believe this might source from having "square size proportional to range" unchecked. If you look a bit more closely the ranges differ so I think this is just based on the visualization option.

April 14, 2019 | 11:06 p.m.

Thanks for the feedback simrud
We usually try to tag the more obvious choices with broader tags but I'll take a look at Daniels library to check if I can find some more that would qualify to receive a double tag

April 14, 2019 | 10:51 p.m.

Exciting topic of the first video :) Welcome aboard!

April 13, 2019 | 12:54 p.m.

Hey Microloconl

Yes exactly once you have bought the course you can always access it from your Run It Once account. Enjoy the videos!

April 13, 2019 | 12:41 p.m.

the sick thing for me is that he drops this while playing $10/$20 PLO

April 12, 2019 | 6:47 p.m.

Haha nice man ty looks great. I'm not expert enough but sounds really decent for 720€ total. That's awesome

April 11, 2019 | 9:08 p.m.

Good luck getting through the downswing. Do you happen to have a picture of your PC you'd be ready to share?

April 11, 2019 | 5:37 p.m.

Plus also check out "Tools for Online Play" in the NLHE -> Learning Paths

Also we recently added a new filter for the whole library called Solver Tools

April 9, 2019 | 4:45 p.m.

Post | Eldora posted in Chatter: Run It Once Week on Poker After Dark

Hey Run It Once community,

In case you've missed it today is a special day: We're excited to announce that "Run It Once Week" is premiering on PokerGO TODAY and TOMORROW (April 8th & 9th) starting at 6pm EST! You can watch all the action on PokerGO

In case you feel the urge to discuss anything happening on the show feel free to get into the comments right here and start the conversation.

Each day will bring 6 hours of $25/$50 PLO action and as a special treat we are bringing Run It Once Poker's Splash the Pot to Poker After Dark!

As an alternative I think our RIO-Training discord channel will be a great place to discuss everything that is going on live.

Are you ready?

April 8, 2019 | 12:28 p.m.

Hey MungGae

Indeed there are some videos where coaches use equity tools. However, often the topic of the video evolves around a deeper purpose and it's more about the pro utilizing e.g. flopzilla/equilab to make his point. Of course in the process you will for sure learn new things about how to use the software and coaches will share some tips and tricks here and there too.

Here is a selection of videos where coaches deployed either flopzilla or Equilab:

Flopzilla:
$100 Zoom w/ Flopzilla and PIO Review (Dekkers) - Essential
Hand Analysis in Flopzilla (innerpsy) - Elite
Detailed Hand Review (John Andress) - Elite

Equilab:
Powerfest Mini Main Event: Software Session (part 11) (Owen Shiels) - Essential)
Comparing Ranges - Freezeout vs. PKO (part 1) (Pedro Madeira) - Essential
Comparing Ranges - Freezeout vs. PKO (part 2) (Pedro Madeira) - Essential
EV Calculations (Apotheosis) - Elite -> this video is diving deep into the theory behind EV calculations in addition to some usage of equilab

Besides that the team behind flopzilla have produced an instructional series on YouTube which in this very case should probably help you out the most:
https://www.flopzilla.com/video.html

Also here's an older thread about the topic from the forums:
Some flopzilla learning video?

I hope this will help you getting started.

April 8, 2019 | 7:56 a.m.

Hey Nihil22

sry about the problems. If you want you can send the hand history with a short message to [email protected] and we will look into finding a solution for the issue.

April 6, 2019 | 8:33 a.m.

Welcome! Looking forward to your videos

April 4, 2019 | 11:20 p.m.

Hey nat2r,

definitely check out Steve Paul's series on Spin&Go's which you can find here:
Leaning a New Game: Spin & Go (part 1)
Leaning a New Game: Spin & Go (part 2)
Leaning a New Game: Spin & Go (part 3)
Leaning a New Game: Spin & Go (part 4)

I can further recommend you to check out our learning path section about ICM which you can find following this link.

In addition, Owen Shiels recently released a video on how to study shove/folding ranges as well as ICM that I could imagine to translate quite well to fast SNG structures.
How to Study: Shove-Call Ranges
How to Study: ICM

Ryan Martin is one of our coaches who plays primarily SNGs. While he tries to make videos on topics that also cover MTT principles I'm sure you can find valuable information in his videos.

I hope this helped a bit and if anyone has any other suggestions please add to this.

Moved to SNG

April 1, 2019 | 10:43 p.m.

Post | Eldora posted in Chatter: Top Members for March 2019

Congratulations to our top members for the month of March 2019. Your contributions to the Run It Once forums are greatly appreciated. Members whose name is on either (or both) lists will receive free Elite membership for the month of April. For more information on our monthly leader board and how it works, click here.

Top 5 Users This Month
Zeneka
Bingo 123
Demondoink
akissv7
belrio42

Top 5 Users All Time
ZenFish
GameTheory
Dddogkillah
Saulo Ribeiro
Kalupso

Any questions or concerns with this months list - please email us at [email protected]

April 1, 2019 | 10:25 p.m.

Comment | Eldora commented on MTT Field Study

Time to shine for our Glossary of Online Poker Terms you can find in the forums. Whilst I'm sure Mathias' spot on definition will have helped you for 2bet make sure to check it out ;)

March 25, 2019 | 11:25 p.m.

Great video Owen! Enjoyed your explorations a lot. In my personal experience it's easy to get overloaded by the nuances of somewhat similar boards so I think what you did is a great mix up and it motivated me to not give in that easily when studying spots that require more intense pattern recognition.

March 25, 2019 | 9:39 p.m.

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