Thanks for the reply. Actually these are games where one has to maintain a certain VPIP to keep getting access, for which one has to widen their range. So keeping that in mind, I thought this hand could/should be played.
It would be great if you could share your reasoning for checking back the flop. What kind of combos would you bet the flop with apart from QQ with SDFD? If you know that the population is such that they can stack off with pair and SD/FD, would you still check?
April 4, 2019 | 4:53 a.m.
SB: 25000 (Villain)
HJ: 24000 (Hero)
Don't have enough info on players as it's an anonymous table. But the table is neither too passive nor too aggressive.
UTG limps, Hero pots to 900 with As 6s Jd 8d.
CO, SB, BB, UTG call. Pot: 3800.
Flop: 5s 4d Qs.
Check to Hero. Hero pots 3800. CO folds. SB calls. BB, UTG fold. Pot: 11400.
I decided to pot because I picked up Nut FD with gutty and backdoor FD. I thought it's a board on which a lot of hands would like to continue. I wanted to inflate the pot with 5 players in the hand. And I have great visibility on Turn and River. Players here are capable of shoving with worse combo draws, and I am very happy to call a shove. Worse case, I am roughly 32-35% favourite. Please let me know if my thought process is incorrect.
Turn: 2d. Pot: 11400.
SB checks. Hero checks behind.
I checked behind because a couple of straights got there. And I wanted to see a free River.
But while reviewing the hand later, I thought it's a mistake. Because in these games, players are always potting the turn with 3,6. They almost never slow play on such a board. Yes, he could have A3, but he has far more other combos here. So In a pot of 11400, I should have bet 7600. A lot of times, I would be taking down the pot with that bet, and even if there's a call, a lot of cards improve my hand that could beat straights and slow played sets as well.
Please let me know if there are any mistakes in my thought process and play.
March 31, 2019 | 7:21 a.m.
After you bet 380 in a pot of 425, which is a pretty strong bet, the Villain still shoved on you, and that too another 310. It's highly unlikely that he's trying to throw you off a strong hand. I think he's putting you on a hand stronger than a set. And still shoving. That means he is really really strong. Had you checked the river, and he would have bet 80-100pc of the pot, you could have contemplated a call. But calling a check-raise and shoving on your almost pot sized bet on this board, it wouldn't be too smart of the Villain to bluff.
A couple of suggestions, and please correct me if i am wrong, as i too am learning:
1. I don't think by betting 380 in 425 on such a board with a set is going to be very profitable. I'm sure your intention is not to convert your hand into a bluff and make the Villain fold a straight. You are never really getting called by a worse hand.
2. Secondly, the whole discussion about betting the flop. Though if you are an aggressive player, betting the flop is great. But considering you took a passive line, and considering the Villain is an aggressive player, you could continue with the passive line on all streets. Because check raising the turn on that board will make him fold most hands that can bet on the river too for value, and his bluffs too. Also, another purpose that it'll serve is that he will make a note against you that you mix up your game and slow play big hand at times. Which can help you get cheap showdowns with marginal hands as his bluffing frequency against you will go down.
Please feel free to tell me if i am out of line here with my analysis. :-)
Sept. 6, 2013 | 8:52 a.m.
TheLove_Below: If you bet call with a hand like Kh Jh, and the river is a 3d or other bricks, and the Villain bets 70pc pot on the river, you'd be forced to fold a lot of times, and become exploitable with the best hand. Isn't it?
Sept. 5, 2013 | 8:33 a.m.
Totally agree with you here. Though Villain almost never has JTo here. He's never checking the flop there. Though I would personally never 4 bet shove with zero equity hands, i personally think it's not a bad play considering Villain mostly has draws here and is never calling. He knows my 4 bet shoving range is pretty nutted. However just in case he has a made hand or he calls with his monster combo draw and we lose the pot, we are making him and the other players against whom I play regularly, believe that we are capable of 4 bet shoving with trash too and not just nuts. And it's something that I can exploit later and get more value out of nutted hands. What do you think?
Sept. 5, 2013 | 2:45 a.m.
Hey.. totally valid point. Its just that if didnt have a queen I would have jammed it for sure. Because he is folding a lot there to my shove. Because I knew that not only my pair is good I have a great draw as well, and I knew he would bluff a lot of rivers I decided to check behind and may be portray a naked draw and hence call a bluff and make more money. Do you think maybe check calling my hand would be more profitable than shoving. Im totally shoving Kh 10h. May be even Ah 10h. Just that I didnt wanna make him fold a drawing where my made hand can improve too? Does that make sense or am I completely out of line here?
Sept. 4, 2013 | 6:53 p.m.
Hi everybody, this is my first post on this site, so pardon me if my way of explaining a hand isn't exactly the way it's supposed to be done. I am playing a live full ring game which is equivalent to 2$/4$. And the stacks are around 300bb deep.
Villain from Mid Position opens 16$ with a stack of 1600$ , which is a standard raise on the table. Cut off calls with a stack of 1000$ and Hero from small blind calls with QhJh with a stack of 1200$.
Now before i go into further explanation, I would like to tell you that the Villain is an outstanding loose aggressive player. He has a wide opening range, is brilliant when it comes to balancing, has amazing reads, has a lot of bluffs in his skill set. I have seen him calling big over bets on the river with 9 high and seen him fold full houses. And he's right most of the times. So basically, he's very very good.
So the Flop comes down:
8h 9h 3s
Brilliant for Hero. Because the Villain c-bets most of the times on such a board, Hero checks, planning to c-raise, if CO flats him too. But surprisingly, Villain checks here and CO too checks behind.
The turn comes:
Giving Hero Top pair and gutty along with flush draw. Now to build the pot in pot of 50$, Hero bets 34$. To Hero's surprise, the Villain raises to 160$. The CO folds. This move took Hero by complete surprise. Villain is not checking his over pairs, top pairs, flush draws, open enders or even guttys for that matter. And even if he checks his over or top pairs, he's never making such a raise on the turn with just one pair. He never wants better hands to re-raise or worse to fold. If he has a set, it could only be a set of queens, because he never slow plays his set or 2p on the flop, to balance his betting of draws and bluffs. I am pretty sure Hero's Q pair is good here. He has mostly picked a backdoor spade draw and is trying to steal the pot.
Now what Hero thought here was that if Hero had Kh Jh instead of Qh Jh, Hero would have re-reraised and tried to take down the pot. And just in case he slow played a big hand, Hero had pretty decent number of outs. But since Hero had the Qh, he decided to flat. Because he was sure that I is ahead of the Villain till now and doesn't want him to fold. Villain would try to bluff Hero out on most rivers and Hero doesn't want to miss out on the river bets.
Probably the worse card for Hero. I was putting the Villain on a backdoor spade flush draw and it got there. Also, now, a 10 would give you a straight, which honestly was not what i was as worried about as much as a flush. Now, in a pot of 370$, the Villain bets 175$. I tank for a bit and I fold. Now what I would like to know is that considering how deep we are, whats the right play on the turn. And was that a call on the river. Once again, I am sorry if I haven't posted my hand, the way it should have been... TY...
Sept. 4, 2013 | 3:33 p.m.
I think you raising from SB, with BB left to act on such a wet board makes a big difference. Had you been in BB, after SB folding, you might raise the CO a lot, and the CO could raise you back with sets and top 2. But in this case, I think that the CO is either flatting you with sets and top two, or if he thinks you have a monster draw, he is re-rasing you big, not just another 140 on top. Your very well-disguised flat on such a board makes him believe that you don't have KQ, and gives him the licence to continue betting. Because from SB, you are almost never raising the flop with A10, J10. Also, you are 3-betting pre-flop with JJ, 10, AA. So you can mostly never have a boat there. I think at best what he has there is KQ, which you are not scared of. And depending on the player profile and your history with him, he can also have a lot of semi-bluffs that you beat. I personally feel it was a call. Let me know what you think?