Maybe my post isnt clear. I do play live full ring PLO, I am a winning player and probably in the top 5 in the game. I just want to dive into opening ranges more and calculate equities vs other ranges. Especially in limed or 1 raise and multi caller pots. But I am having trouble assigning ranges because I simply dont know what hand range charts are.
Does anyone have a link to a plo preflop range chart? 5%, 10%, 20%, 50% hands? Its surprising that top 10% is 1,600 hands.
Feb. 21, 2019 | 9:35 p.m.
Feb. 20, 2019 | 3:20 p.m.
I play live PLO up to 5/10 but mostly 1/2/5. I took a little while off and now am back but I am questioning the basics because preflop equities are driving me crazy. I simply run my hand vs a top 10% range or 20% and see what the equity would be. Now heads up it matters but when most every pot is 3-6 ways in live games, I am finding that the top 10% vs a 100% range isnt anything much (few %) and a lot of money can be made postflop with maybe any hand. Now I am not saying we should play a 100% range but I think wider ranges in multi way pots make a lot of sense.
What really is confusing is that in hold em there are 169 starting hand possibilities (ignoring different suits). Top 10% is easy to find. In PLO there are 16,342 starting hand possibilities and the top 10% range is 1,634 hands. WOW! So what is that range? I mean is everyone playing a top 10% range and I need to start putting guys on the top 1% range or 163 hands?
Im sure a lot of you have thought about this but Id like to dive in more and discuss live low/medium stakes plo games where limps or raise - call -call - call - call is common. How do you assume ranges here?
Also, am I doing something wrong in pro poker tools when looking at my hand vs ranges?
I used 4s5s6d8c as my hand and vs 5% we are a 59.52/40.48% dog. But at 10% we are 59.4/40.6 dog. 25% 58.8/42.2 dog. 50% 58.2/41.8 dog. vs 100% range we are 55.76/44.24 dog. All are super close except for vs a 100% range but even then we are a dog. I would think 4568 would be a great hand to play but man, I have been wrong here.
Hand Equity Wins Ties
5% 59.52% 356,126 1,983
4s5s6d8c 40.48% 241,891 1,983
Hand Equity Wins Ties
10% 59.40% 355,375 2,052
4s5s6d8c 40.60% 242,573 2,052
Hand Equity Wins Ties
25% 58.81% 350,848 3,987
4s5s6d8c 41.19% 245,165 3,987
Hand Equity Wins Ties
50% 58.21% 345,332 7,891
4s5s6d8c 41.79% 246,777 7,891
Hand Equity Wins Ties
100% 55.76% 329,742 9,610
4s5s6d8c 44.24% 260,648 9,610
Feb. 18, 2019 | 8:03 p.m.
Fold pre. Fold now. Remember that the rest of the table is playing against the fish too and you dont want to get sucked into a bad spot. They are probably letting him run the betting on the table and they are getting passive w good hands.
Jan. 5, 2019 | 2:54 p.m.
I make it $250 and never am never folding if its re raised. I like to build a pot here and if a blank turn comes we might even be able to see the river for free with our CR and everyone calling. They wont be betting without the nuts in a large multiway pot. We also get some hands that may chop with us out.
Jan. 5, 2019 | 2:50 p.m.
This is where internet vs live is a different game. I regularly play in a 1/2/5 PLO game live and its full of some good regs and bad passive fish that make the whole game passive. Stack sizes usually mess with the lineup too bc a lot of people will have $200 and 3 betting does work. Then you end up 5 ways to a flop in a 3 bet pot and you have AAKK (absolute top of range) and the flop come 59T and someone hits that flop out of 5 people. Basically turns your hands into set mining which is nuts.
About this hand. Yes we are playing this way preflop 100%. He makes it $20 from the SB with 2 limpers pre. Then you pot it to 70. SB is calling here probably 95% of the time even though he is OOP the whole way, that doesnt matter to him.
On the flop I am cbetting this because you just have to. Now we have to put villian on a range here which will be super hard bc its live 1/2 plo. Hero bets 100 into 150. I dont know or really think betting 90-150 makes a difference here. Maybe a pot sized bet will show more strength but SB isnt smart enough to know this. So his range is the obvious JJ, 88, almost never 22 unless its like QQ22. Then he has the rundowns JT98, 789T. Then he has just bad hands like 569T. And sometimes stronger 9TKQ hands. But what does he love so much that he x/r with? I think its either a set or 9T in his range.
But here is the issue. We are all discussing equity vs ranges which is correct but in live PLO its a struggle. Its not as simple as getting it in with 3% ev and being ok with the outcome. Galfond actually discussed this on the ChicagoJoey podcast to show the difference between live/online. We just never get in enough spots vs players, especially fish, while playing live that we push small edges. So this turns into a fold for me personally which really sucks. But people arent doing super crazy things anymore and in live plo they usually have it and really have it with a x/r.
Sept. 12, 2016 | 1:21 p.m.
I don't have any reads on villain. We used to play 1/2nl years ago and I haven't seen him around much. I have never seen him play PLO but he seems to be competent in the hour he has been there. He has been agro but must be catching cards bc he is winning at showdown.
Villian is BB
Effective stacks are $650
Limps around for $5 and I make it $20 with 7d8s9cTd, sb calls, bb makes it $65. We get a caller, I call, sb calls.
BB leads for $235. We?
I have to put villain on AAxx dd, AKQT type hand, Adkdkxx, here like 99% of the time. I cant imagine being in great shape in this spot and am struggling with a decision. I am tanking for like 3 minutes here.
How often are we shoving/calling/folding?
Oct. 4, 2015 | 3:51 p.m.
I have an elite membership but have been unhappy with 2 issues. On an iPad when I try to watch videos from the site I can only get 3 seconds into the run it once preview then it freezes. So I try the app and download videos with no issues but when I go to play them the app it freezes then closes and logs me out.
I can't watch videos either way
Oct. 3, 2015 | 12:07 a.m.
I have $1500 and V has $400 and UTG has $800
Sept. 28, 2015 | 2:42 p.m.
At 6:32 you get 8h6d4d7c on the left table and insta fold 4 handed. Why is this? Your hands that you are playing seem to be wide enough to include a hand this coordinated. In a live setting I am always playing this and would ass online 4 handed as well. Maybe this is a big leak in my game. Any insight to these kinds of hands? Other hands that get me in bad spots are 4566 7789 type hands.
Sept. 22, 2015 | 12:54 a.m.
Bet 1/2 pot or the size you did. Small sizing so you can bet/call here. Its a WA/WB spot for sure and he only continues with QQ, JJ, wrap, or JT.
If you check here you are showing weakness and letting him take advantage of that. That's great if were ahead but if he has JT and we check call flop then were c/c all other streets unless we improve and that's just giving the villain the best line.
Sept. 21, 2015 | 7:22 p.m.
Weird spot in this game. I am up about 2k but have been running bad for a while. I am comfortable in this game and there is a lot of preflop 2 betting but no real 3 betting going on. I have a super fish to my right that will play any 4 cards. I have a weak passive player to my left. And I have a few fish at the table. Its late in the night and the game is good. I am raising a lot OR just flatting the fish to my right anytime he raises.
Straddle hand. I make it $40 on the button after a bunch of limps with
Its checked around. I don't think much of this flop but with spades and wheel combos with everyone calling I just check. I don't think I am cbetting this flop ever at this table.
SB leads for $175 and we get 2 callers. UTG (fish with a wide range but not horrible) and V to my right (super fish any 4 cards).
What do we do here? What can we put players on? Especially when they are weak passive and c flop and lead turn? Id like to see some PJ work on this bc I don't have that. My thought process is that spades are calling, 2,4 or 6,4 are calling a lot here. A combo of those 2 ranges for sure calls quickly. Now QJ is in the mix too. For the SB I think he only leads HUGE hands like 33 55 KK QJss AQJss but I have seen him really bet draws all night so I am leaning towards a set. I also find it hard to think he checks flop w KK and its more weighted to 33 55. The only problem with that range is that I don't know if he calls $40 from SB (as the first caller) with any hands that are 33 55 unless its AA33 AA55.
Any insight would be nice.
Sept. 21, 2015 | 2:28 p.m.
A year later but I just watched it...
What makes this hand interesting is that its LIVE PLO and it really is a weird spot.
In a live game with stack sizes its hard to play your hand. To the average player they think you just get it in and be happy but that's not the case. Its hard to say that he has many straights in his range. Its live so his limp calling range can be any 4 cards or somewhat connected 3456 2356 type hands. I don't see many sets on this board though but with your description its possible.
Now the interesting part. You have both the Ac and Kc but didn't really discuss that for stack off ranges. I think that's really important that you have the Kc here and we can discount more flushes that normal. We also have a 6 and that blocks a lot of hands. That now weights his range to made hands that are betting for protection. I cant see him betting a J or Q hi flush here w confidence. His hand is now polarized to a bluff or straight.
The other issue is that we are facing a PSB on the turn and have to risk a lot more of our money when sizes are deep. I think its a good fold but is close. Your results show a small +EV plan but I really think that number changes when we start to take out FD from his range. Even if he does have a FD he's not going to stack off multiple streets vs you. At least he shouldn't....
Sept. 21, 2015 | 3:22 a.m.
Cbet sizing in live PLO isn't that big of a deal. Yes, some players can pick up on sizing and equate weakness but that's very rare and they have to be very good. The thing about live is that its always multiway so even if someone has a read on your sizing he still needs to get through the rest of the players in the hand.
If you had KKxx or QQxx hands in your 4 betting range then your sizing can mean anything. So I would bet smaller or even check. The K and Q are bad cards for your 4 betting range vs a 3 bet and 4 caller. You basically turn your hand over as AAxx (usually GOOD AAxx) and now villain can profitably call the 4. Now if the villain knows you have AA and you will cbet the majority of flops then he is in a great spot and can get it in so good vs you.
For him to 3 bet you and you say he is tight he has KK, QQ, AKQJ type hands here. Now discount the Ah and he has JT, JTKQ type hands.
I fold flop. I bet smaller on flop. And I 4 bet smaller preflop. I try to size it so that MP w $1200 can decide to shove if he wants and its open back to you.
Sept. 21, 2015 | 2:18 a.m.
Since I am a live PLO player and understand ranges and what people go with live vs online I will comment.
preflop is a limp call with this hand in this lineup. It can get you paid in a lot of ways vs players who are bad and will overplay hands and not valuebet where they should. You have to play hands like this and be able to get away in spots like this as well.
flop is a fold I think. You don't make any nut hands here and with V1 flatting a fish he usually has your hand dominated by drawing to better flushes and straights. I'm sure he has Ah in his hand.
Sept. 20, 2015 | 4:48 p.m.
At 25:30 bottom left we have 97d8d7 and you elect to limp on the button because you don't want to get raised. I understand that but I find myself getting into trouble with these kinds of hands. Maybe a bit weaker like 5567 5568 4456 etc... Do you recommend not playing these hands? Or would you say a hand like 7789 is better/easier to play because you make the top end more often and higher sets?
FYI... I am playing these hands in a live game where you don't get many hands and people are limping almost any 4. I raise for value/deception and when I hit flops I play aggressive.
Sept. 9, 2015 | 8:35 p.m.
At 34:50 on the flop you said you bet your hand for protection. I don't understand how this is protection... I see it as straight value with your hand. Explain.
Sept. 9, 2015 | 5:23 p.m.
In the replayer at 31:24 you said he played AJ72 standard. How was his play standard? It seemed like a spew to me.
Sept. 9, 2015 | 5:23 p.m.
We have 2 live PLO games running as usual. I am at the main game and it is a good game. I am currently stuck 6 buy ins but I am running really bad and probably pressing in some bad spots. Game is 1/2/5 and villian 1 is a weak player but has $2k in front and villain 2 is solid but I don't have much history and he has $4k and winning everything. Somehow the table breaks down to 3 players for a few hands and I have the button with a $500 stack.
I make it $20, villain 1 calls, villain 2 makes it $60 and we call.
Pot is $180
Villian 1 checks, villain 2 bets $150.
This is an interesting spot. Villian 1 is going to call and raise, he has chips out and I can tell by body language. I don't want to raise and get him out but with stack sizes it seems like a spot to shove. I don't know the best line, I just call and v1 calls.
Villian 1 checks, villain 2 pots it. The way the night has been going I have been up against same hands with redraws and when I have redraws, theirs was always better. I have a 7 high flush here. Villian 1 will also check call flop with a flush draw and check call down if its not the nuts.
May 1, 2015 | 11:26 p.m.
It's not bankroll issues. I have played ss 25/50 in the past the same way and I do it on stars play money too. Sick.
Feb. 2, 2015 | 9:38 p.m.
I am seeing myself change my style of play to weak, tight, nit the deeper I get. From 40-150 BB I can play well but around the 200-250+BB range I start to play bad poker. I need to fix this to evolve. Here is an example of a hand that I would play 100% differently SS.
Villian is a betting machine. He is a super loose player that accumulates chips at a great rate and just never stops. Obviously his success depends on how well he is running. But he is opening 90% of the pots. Today and lately he has been winning. He had 15k at a 1/2/5 game a couple weeks ago. I think that villain respects my game but he has position on me. He knows that I can construct ranges and I wont make big equity mistakes postflop. I have a solid checking range bc I have CR him in the past where he has folded BUT this was when I was a shorter stack. Deep stack, I honestly have almost no CR range. I have seen him not cbet and not bet turns vs me when he will fire near 100% of the time vs others.
Villian and I both have about $2,000.
He is UTG here and makes it $15 (standard open) and we get 2 callers. I am in the BB w AA72ssdd and I make it $60 and he calls and we get 2 other callers. Flop is 9s3h5c and I check, villain bets $250, folds to me. I consider folding here!!!! This is a horrible way for me to play the flop but for some reason I shut down and consider check/folding this flop. I end up calling, but not excited to play a big pot OOP vs the most agro villain I have seen. Turn is Qs which now give me a FD. I obviously check which is what I would normally do I think with the intention of calling 80% and raising 20% but never folding. Villian bets $600 and I fold!
I messed this hand up on almost every street. I need help. Can anyone help me here? I will give you all the info you need but I need help... Thanks
Feb. 2, 2015 | 5:44 p.m.
I am a winner at $48/hr in this 1/2/5 game. I short stack 90% of the time but I still play deep and I don't hit and run. Lately my attention span has gotten the best of me and I just don't have it in me. Anyways, I played this hand during a short session and a poker friend that was in the hand (winning player) commented on my play and said it makes no sense. He has said this multiple times to me in similar spots. I don't really talk poker with anyone bc I find it hard to relate to their thinking and they don't agree with mine. I am winning at a solid rate so I just let it go.
Villian says he beats the game for $65/hr which I don't belive.
I have 200 in the HJ position. Game is OK today but its becoming more and more nitty over time. I don't know anything about the guy to my left or to my right except that they are middle age and I assume play weak/straight forward PLO. Villian is on the Button and has everyone covered. He is agro is spots and will squeeze w equity in these kinds of spots. He usually has a hand though.
MP makes it $15 (standard open). I have 89TJ no suit and I call. CO calls. Button makes it $65. Folds back to MP and he calls. I see CO basically complaining that if I call he is calling, If I raise or fold he probably folds (this is more of a tell than out loud complaining). I call. CO calls.
Results don't matter but flop is 389hh, MP bets, I shove, CO folds, Button Shoves, MP calls. VS 9TQJ and AAxxhh. Turn is an 8 and I win the main pot.
I have a very clear reason why I call. I feel that my hand plays better with more players and I want all of their money in the pot. If I catch any piece of the flop I am shoving. I don't want to raise and get HU vs someone with this hand. I figure if I can have 4 players where the money will go in post flop I do 3 things:
1-If I don't connect on the flop, I save $140
2-If I get my $140 OTF then I am doing so with good equity vs preflop if I get it in, its not in great shape
3-This is very important to my SS strategy... I shove with equity OTF and larger stacks have to still play their hand. I don't have enough for them to fold so I am just building the pot with their main pot contributions when they are worried about playing HU vs eachother.
After the hand, villain says "I wish we got it all in preflop, you wouldn't have called". I am NEVER folding my hand preflop. If somehow the raise got to $200, I am still calling. He told me that my play makes no sense. I would call off my stack but I wont ship it in pre.
Opinions? Maybe my game is seriously flawed but I like my line and thought process. But I am open to hearing what others say.
Feb. 2, 2015 | 5:35 p.m.
Villian 1 is an older guy who plays straight forward. He calls with nut flush draws and bets when they come. He bets with made hands. He is up on the day.
Villian 2 is reg who does well in the game. He has $3,000 and in for $500. He plays pretty tight and has good cards when he is in hands. I dont have a history with him but we play a lot together. I see him get to showdown with good hands.
I have a loose winning image I think to half the table. The other half thinks I am nitty. I can steal pots vs certain players based on my image. Lines like Checking flop and betting turns in hands like AA4 flops I can take down a lot.
I have KsQs8d8s in the BB. Open limp $5 and a raise to $20 with 4 callers. I call.
Flop comes Kh8s2c
Villian 1 is SB and leads out for $65. I decide to flat thinking I have the best hand here. Villian 2 calls and others fold. I think that Villian 1 can have AA, KK, 22 here only. Not sure why he leads into the field without these kinds of hands on dry flops. I dont know what villian 2 has here but I would think AK, AK8, K82 type hands.
The turn is 9s. Villian 1 leads out for $80. He now either has KK or 22 or AA still and I think he is smart enough to slow down w AA. But sizing is so small on the turn that it could just be a blocker bet. I flat thinking I am either crushing or behind the only hand KK. I dont think the 9 changes anything with villian 1. After I flat, Villian 2 raises to $350. Now I am super interested in this hand and cant make sense of it at all. It crosses my mind that he can have 99 here. When the turn came, I noticed that he seemed highly interested and perked up a bit and watched V1 intently. Villian 1 tanks for a while and then folds. He had to have 22 here. Now the action is on me.
I cant make any sense of this hand. Villian 2 isnt good and IMO doesnt know how to value hands. Its possible that I think he is so basic and not good that he cant make moves. I have the obvious K blocker but I start to consider him having KK because I ran into a streak where when I had blockers, they always had the blocker set cards. The 9 also doesnt help me figure out his range. The 9 to me is as bad as an A coming I think. I start to consider hands that he has where he can have 99. Thats AA99, AK99, K992, K998. So I construct his possible range.
Thats pretty much all. He says "Ill show you" which isnt like him but I cant make a read on that. I know he does like me though and would show the nuts. I turn over a K and so does he. He turns over a 9 and I turn over a Q. He turns over an 8 and I turn over an 8. This is as far as we get.
March 24, 2014 | 3:40 p.m.
The turn is a red 9. I check again but I probably should have lead out here. I have an overpair and open ender. I checked. Villian bets in late position (he might have been closing the action). I think about what he can have here and hands that check flop and bet turn dont make sense. 99 or JJ is the only think that makes sense for hands that have me beat. He could now be betting top pair and FD after its checked 2x.
Turn is another 9 that doesnt complete a flush. I remember thinking that this was a good card for me and a J was a bad card. I was happy to check call here. Now looking back, this hand was not a good hand by me. I should have lead the turn. I probably should have lead the flop too. The river call was questionable but I tried to calculate how often he bets the turn and river with a hand that beats me. Turns out, he got lucky on the river and I was ahead but he probably that he had the best hand on the turn.
Oct. 24, 2013 | 6:24 p.m.
Has this skype group worked out? Id like to join if you are doing a regular thing.
Oct. 18, 2013 | 7:42 p.m.
Oct. 18, 2013 | 7:38 p.m.
The QQT8 hand is a hand that I question but it turned out that my read was right and I was ahead on the flop and turn. I should have shoved the turn but I didnt. He still hit a 4 outer though.
Oct. 18, 2013 | 7:28 p.m.
great spot. I reviewed hands with a fellow PLO player via email this
morning and he said that I didnt play that well. I havent won in a long
time so I am open to anything here.
Here is the email I sent:
QhQsTh8d on a board of Js3s3d9h. He bets turn I shove he calls with AJT9. 9 River. $800 hand.
ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation4,320 trials (Exhaustive)board: J339Hand Pot equity Wins Ties QhQsTh8d 78.47% 3,3900AJT921.53% 9300
KsKhJs3d in straddle. I make it $25 and everyone calls. I have $275
behind and pot is 200. Flop is As4s5d. I check, short stack shoves
$80, next ss shoves $150, call, call, I shove, flat, flat. Pot is
1,255. Turn 8d and 2 players have $800 effective. Guy shoves with 678T
and gets called by A6xx. River A.
ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation516,094 trials (Randomized)board: A45Hand Pot equity Wins Ties KsKhJs3d34.95% 179,7481,271a618.47% 82,41226,174678T22.54% 102,20228,58415%12.04% 57,4869,51615%11.99% 57,3039,374
Then I get KJT9 and an AQ8 flop. Amazing... I get it in 4 ways and A8xx wins with A on turn.
ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation600,000 trials (Randomized)board: AQ8 Hand Pot equity Wins Ties KJT9 44.64% 265,3274,966a855.36% 329,7074,966
Then final hand.... I have KdJdJs4s and its $20 8 ways preflop. Flop
comes 8d7hTd and bet is $40 and a call and I call. Pot is 280. Turn Qd
and checked to me and I shove $240. I get called in 2 spots. Pot is
1k. River 7d. I lose to Q79T and other guy just had a straight.
ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation600,000 trials (Randomized)board: 87TqHand Pot equity Wins Ties KdJdJs4s 82.12% 492,7370Q79T 15.81% 94,702313J92.07% 12,248313
Not complaining here at all. Just want to know if I play poorly or if these were standard spots that I just lost in?
Oct. 17, 2013 | 5:55 p.m.
Everyone covers in this hand. I have $600 and the button. It is raised to $10. I dont know what happened here but its $10 to me and I am on the button with 5s7s8c9d. This hand seems playable for $10 OTB so I call. The bb (fish, V1)) makes it $75. He does this with AA hands and KK w broadway hands. Action folds to 2 to my right (V2) who shoves for $120 total (this does not open the action) and V3 flats the $120. BB cant reopen here so I am having to call $110 to get a pot of (120+120+120+25)=$385 (assuming V1 calls the 120 which he will 100% of the time.
V1 range is AA KK and suited broadways. V2 is shoving 90% of hands and V3 is flatting with a wide range of hands that are not premium hands (he would 4 bet shove here). He can have my kind of cards with more gaps and other rundowns. I have seen V3 play hands like Qd7d5s2s for $200 preflop!
I have 24% vs these ranges 5%, 80%, 50%:
I have good implied odds I believe too. I struggled with this spot for a few reasons:
-I am card dead and trying to convince myself to play this hand
-I have the button and can flat and play flops profitably (but there is a small chance V2 V3 have a hand with JT in them which kills my equity).
-I considered playing the hand but thought I had to raise here and get most of my stack in. If I pot it, I can make it 95% of my stack. I thought this is a pot/fold spot at the time. Looking back, it probably isnt close to a pot/fold situation.
-I am running horrible and it effects my thought process.
What are we doing here?