1) I would raise flop since we have great eq vs most hands, and even okish eq vs sets (except KK which is unlikely). As played it depends on his barreling tendencies, with no read I'm probably leaning towards a call and playing a river IP. Can't fault you for raising turn vs a guy that's drinking tho ;).
2) I would raise river esp since he's a fish. I assume live players aren't so afraid of KK that they would never RR K8xx ott (esp since he donked small and you didn't raise to pot). So even if his range is super strong and only consists of 88 and K8 there are more combos of K8 than 88, and since I assume he can't fold K8 to a river raise ai, easy raise otr (if stacks were very deep otr vs a tight guy that we know will fold K8 to a jam, calling makes sense).
Oct. 24, 2018 | 1:38 a.m.
Do you take breaks regularly when you play? The longer you play the more often you may need breaks, and those breaks may need to be even more refreshing when you're in you 7th hour compared to your 2nd hour.
Unless you feel like you get run over by other deep stacks, feel uncomfortable playing deep or find yourself check folding on the river after having called flop/turn or bet flop-called turn a lot etc or calling on the river with the worst hand often (read more than ~70%) in big pots when your stack is above 300bbs (if not all of the above) I would think it's more likely that it's your focus rather than your deep stack play that's causing a decrease in your winrate.
Most people can not focus effectively for more than 45-90 mins. Since you're a poker player that could very well be higher in your case, but often a live session goes on for 5-12 hours so unless everyone in your game has played as long as you have it makes sense that your winrate drops as the hours go on.
It took me years before I realized my winrate was basically cut by 50% hour 3, almost 0 after hour 4, so these days I'm very careful about playing longer than that in one session (there has to be a big fish just giving money away most hands).
Take a walk, get some fresh air, do some pushups in a place we're you dont look like a psycho or freak out the fish and that might help you get back to at least 90% of A+ focus.
Meditation and working out as well as cold showers are great to recharge as well if you have access to a quiet place in/near the poker room.
If that sounds boring or weird, you could try to add 10 mins to your sessions every week and thereby get a slow incremental increase to your playing time as well as your mental stamina/focus training. But taking a 10-15min walk outside and getting some fresh air should be doable.
Chris Primmer and Tommy Angelo have some great videos on the topics of meditation/recharging so I would check them out if you haven't already.
Oct. 24, 2018 | 1:27 a.m.
Thanks for your input erdian. It's not live btw, Villain sat down "metaphorically" :)
Interesting that you think it's a an easier call live, I'll keep that in mind that LAGs are more aggro in general in these spots next time I play at the casino. Does the fact that it's online change the way you wanna play the hand?
Oct. 24, 2018 | 1:09 a.m.
I agree we are not that high up in our range. I see now that my comment in my original post was a little sloppy. I just meant we are high enough in our range to consider calling if we wanna prevent villain from auto (semi-)bluffing profitably.
If we fold this villain should always bluff this turn right? I am totally on board with the idea that the average unknown player albeit aggresseive doesn't bluff all his air on this turn and/or may not have a lot of air in his get-to-turn range to begin with.
Which is the weakest hand you think I should call with on this turn MegaGrinder?
Oct. 19, 2018 | 12:09 a.m.
Great video! Regarding the hand charts for UTG, are they for 40bb effective "only"? There were some hands in there I never really open from UTG 100-200bbs deep (mainly the Axxx ds with 3 sidecards 7 and lower), but also a couple of hands I normally do open (and win with, at least so far) that would be ranked as worse than some of the hands in the chart. Do you think someone who never plays with less than 100bbs at the table should alter their opening ranges after seeing that chart for the first time assuming the player is winning with similarly ranked hands, or should a player like that study the charts as a theoretical exercise only? Since I don't have a super computer to run pre-flop sims I am totally clueless as to how opening ranges would change when going from a 40bb stack to a 100bb stack.
Oct. 16, 2018 | 3:19 a.m.
Villain sat down about 20 hands ago. Coolered another player that left. Villain has been cbetting 3/4 otf, and pb-seems to be the only sizing used. Villain has 3b 3/7 times from the blinds vs the BTN/CO. Sample is small though, so I don't wanna read too much into the stats, but villain def seemed to be aggro. The only time any1 has called his flop cbet hes bet pot on the turn and river and gotten a fold.
The only hand I've played against villain: he 3b pre, checked a low flop, I stabbed and he folded.
Now villain pots flop, pots turn, bets 75% pot otr. Would you look him up here or give hime credit / wait for a read or confirmation that he is very aggro? If you're folding this would you call with something like A982/A862? Feels like were high up in our range even though I'd prefer a blocker and would rather hero call K987 probably. If we're gonna fold this river we probably would prefer to fold turn right? Feels like a very unlikely villain that pots this turn and then gives up on a brick river if he is (semi-)bluffing.
Stakes are 1/2$
Oct. 10, 2018 | 2:56 a.m.
Fold flop, should probably fold pre also with a hand that's less connected than it seems, and the 3-suit variety hurts the strength of the hand. I'd def raise it pre if the blinds are nits or the sb is tightish and the bb is a passive fish.
Oct. 10, 2018 | 2:19 a.m.
Its really close. If he is capable of aggression in this way with other hands than top2+ I would ship it in on the turn. Vs a similar range to the one you described we have 37%. Co is rarely slowplaying, he will show up with 88/55 that he played passively to see a safe turn very rarely but will be priced in very often with his big FDs / wraps / pair+nutOE if we just call.
I assumed BB plays around 70% of his hands from this spot (minus a 4% squeezing range).
AT:Add w/o pocket pair
~50% sets, ~30% OE+FD
Vs this range we have 37% and we need 41% to BE. Since calling is going to give us a headache on most rivers if CO over calls, we should either raise or fold ott imo. BB doesn't need to add a lot of bet-folds and/or be a little wider for this to be a clear +EV shove (he probably has a bet-fold % under 10%). I rarely play live PLO though so take it with a grain of salt, if your gut feeling tells you that this is a set the vast majority of the time then I'm ok with a fold.
Vs this range for example, we have 48%
~30% sets, and 60% OE+FD
Very close spot, vs a nit its an easy fold actually but vs any1 who donks at a medium-high frequency and is capable of playing other hands than set/top2+backup like this with any significant frequency we can't fold. His post flop aggression (your estimate of the width of his donking range and his tendency to follow up with a big barrel rather than going for a x-c ott) would be a bigger factor in my decision making process rather than his pre flop splashyness. Since you play these stakes Im sure you know that, but a very loose range hits this board harder than a tight range at least in terms of sets so if you havent seen him doing a lot of betting post flop I would lean towards a fold unless his flop donking range is very wide (like most Tens up, any GS with a decent FD) in which case I would just assume that he has so many draws and two pairs worse than ours that we cant make a nitty hero fold.
Oct. 10, 2018 | 2:09 a.m.
Limp-reraising some of your AA and your best KK and potentially some other premiums from EP and maybe MP will probably serve you very well in order to thin the field and pump a bunch of money in pre-flop with a nice equity edge. This is assuming you can get the SPR down to a low enough number where post-flop play won't be difficult (4 or lower is fine with like AAds/KKds with connected sidecards, ideally 2 or lower with AAss and KKss). When you open from EP/MP you can expect to get 3-5 callers+ so limp-reraising is a nice way to get the maximum from your premium AA/KK and exploit ppl who will happily call any 4 vs an open. Obv ppl need to iso your limps often for this to be a good strat. The added benefit to l-rr often is that you can add some weaker hands and plan to limp-call that still have nutted qualities (eg AQJ5 with a nut suit or disconnected KKss) expecting to see a flop for cheap since they will fear the l-rr.
What MegaGrinder said is a good starting point for hand selection if your new to PLO. Re top gap hands, they flop more wraps than middle/bottom gap so if you have high cards like AQJT or KJT9 ideally with a A/K-high suit they can still be playable since most of their straights are nutted (AQJT only makes nut straights) even if the plan is to only play nutted hands.
Oct. 9, 2018 | 1:52 a.m.
I hate to ask a very general question like this one but: what is your default approach (vs unknown f.ex) to situations where you've cb a 2-tone flop IP with a set/top2 100bbs deep and a straight hits that's not the most likely straight for your opponent to have hit or his range contains plenty of other hands and draws that will check-call (let's say he has it 10-20% of the time) and barreling the turn would mostly end up being a protection/charging bet since v-betting the river would be optimistic if not downright bad? Let's say you have JJ97 on JT7s and the turn is a Q (3 straights but villain will only x-r one of them and AK is less likely than KQ/Q9) in the CO vs BB with 20bbs in the pot and stacks are about 90 or perhaps QT85 on T84s Q with similar stacks is a better example.
In both spots we cant v-bet most rivers, and it may even be too thin to v-bet on a brick vs an opponent who is unwilling to hero call or defend appropriately. We won't make any mistakes vs his raising range (assuming he only x-r the nuts) but bet-folding - at least if we have a set - is kinda gross since we almost have the equity to call vs the raise.
However, checking back will give free cards to plenty of hands with 20-30% eq and some of them may fold on the turn if we bet and villain will be able to take the pot away from us if we check back turn when for example he bets the river on a card that's really bad for our hand with a missed draw repping the one that hit. With a set especially we also wanna build the pot for the times we fill up which is an incentive to bet.
If you're uncomfortable to answer a super general question like this one feel free to come up with a board example of your own if that would help to clarify your point (if it doesn't take up too much of your time).
I would appreciate any thoughts.
Oct. 7, 2018 | 3:20 a.m.
~ min 14. Is the AJ76ds a standard 3b for you SB vs CO vs an unknown? Just wondering if you 3b because you thought he opened "too wide" (he seemed pretty active in the small sample) or if you think it's strong enough/plays well enough OOP to 3b as a default even though we are probably not pushing eq vs a 25% range.
P.S Great SN!
Oct. 4, 2018 | 1:19 a.m.
I don't think I would have been as tempted to 4b as I was, if a call vs the 3b by me would have created a heads up pot IP. Any merit in 4-betting wider to avoid playing a 3-way pot with poor relative position even with hands that arent pushing an significant EQ edge? Or rather, is this factor ever important enough for you to 4b a hand (especially deep) to avoid playing with poor relative position post flop that you wouldn't 4b if you had good relative position or the pot would go heads-up to the flop if you call?
Sept. 24, 2018 | 1:28 p.m.
Hehe, the image upload failed miserably...can't see the stack sizes so I'll write them next to each hand in the text.
Hand 1 (AKQ7ss Nut suit) (260bbs deep vs squeezer, 330bbs deep vs btn)
Villain plays 55/36/17/16 VPIP/PFR/3B/Squeeze over a large sample. He squeezes 14% sb v co over a large sample but has a tendency
to widen his 3b-ranges a lot when theres a big fish in the game (btn). This session his 3b/sq passed 30% on all the tables where
there was a fish (mainly by 3betting the fish a lot, or squeezing often whenever the fish raised/called pre flop). I've seen him do it before and it seems to just be his game plan whenever there's someone vpiping
70 to 3b and squeeze all kinds of trash hands although he widens his range drastically if he's down or has just lost a big pot. Not sure if he really does squeeze exactly 30%, but it's almost certainly between 25-40%
depending on who the fish is and how tilted villain is. Villain is very positionally unaware, he opens 50-55% from all positions except from
EP where he tightens up slightly to ~45%. He plays pretty straight forwardly on the river even though he likes to cb and barrel a lot flop-turn even in 3-way pots. His flop checks are honest and usually means x-f, but he likes to go for the x-r on turns with top2+ / straights when the spr is about 3-6.
I think he's noticed that I've called him flop-turn a lot in the past and taken it away on the river so he's started to throw
in some more river bluffs than he used to.
I don't have much of a sample on the recreational on the button, but his VPIP is over 70
seems to flat at least 60% otb, and 3bets about 5-6% overall. If villain 5bets I can be pretty confident he is very AA/AKK/KKds-heavy
and fold. Villain (sb) does cb a fair bit in 3way 3b pots, and it feels like my hand particularly dislikes the bad relative position gets into a lot of marginal situations when we flop naked top pair or pair+GS.
Hand 2 (AJ85ds) (160bbs deep vs squeezer, 200bbs vs sb-caller)
Villain plays 59/37/31/29 VPIP/PFR/3B/Squeeze over a 100 hand sample. His 3b sb/bb vs btn is 50% (12/24). I really only have one read on villain: he likes to fight for pots/try to steal pots otf by raising, doesn't really fold the turn vs cbets (0/9 fwiw) but has a
tendency to give up on the river (at least if it looks like your range is SDV-heavy and draws miss). Aggression by street: 36/41/22 but not a big sample though.
He did just get stacked by sb maybe 5 hands ago, and seemed to ramp up the aggression after that. Sb seems to be a standard, not too creative reg.
Sb is probably capable of flatting AA here, but didn't seem to be observant enough to do so since he kept flatting and folding to bb's
3bets (not realizing that he would get 3-bet around 50% from most positions) and just playing passively overall.
Hand 3 (JT97ss) (200bbs deep)
I didn't have a hud when I played this hand. BB was a splashy LAG, 3betting a lot, but hardly any sample. I think he had 3b or squeezed
3-4 times the last 8-10 hands. He showed down AA once when he 3b me btn vs mp, and showed some very speculative hands the two other times he 3b and went to showdown (don't remember the hands exactly, but hands that most people wouldn't include in a 15% 3b-range).
He seemed to play ok post flop, and I didn't get any reliable reads. I remember he almost auto-cbet every 2-way pot though. Btn is a sub-par lag who flats between 30-40% otb, plays pretty straight forwardly on the river, under-bluffs in general and likes to bet flop/turn merged and check back the river with a large fraction of his flop/turn cb-ranges. I have seen btn 4b in similar spots with AKJ5ss Jhigh suit, and AK53ds when a new player 3-bets a lot. Our hand plays better with poor relative position than the AKQ7ss in my opinion but the low suit may be difficult to play if we flop something like pair+FD or gutter+FD. The IP-player in this hand will not play as meekly and straight-forwardly as the fish in hand 1.
Which (if any) hand would you 4-bet? Which hand would you rather 4-bet?
Feel free to comment on just one of the hands, I realize this became a longer post than I intended since it seemed silly not to include
some post flop reads. Just ask if you want more info on the players.
Any input is welcome, GL!
Sept. 11, 2018 | 2:43 a.m.
Figured I'd try to help kick-start this forum with a moderately interesting line-check. I have some more interesting and complicated HHs I'm intending to post within a few days.
The site I played the hand on doesn't have HHs that are supported here so you'll have to make do with a PJ-screenshot. The bet amounts in the PJ-file are just big blinds, stakes are equivalent to $1/2
Never seen villain before, only played like 20 hands but seemed fairly active (3b a couple of times, opened a decent bit). I assume he opens at least 25-35% in the CO.
I doubt we can bet-fold if we do bet so do you prefer checking back or bet getting it in?
If you check back, whats your plan on an 9/8/7/6/5/4/3/2 that doesn't give us a FD?
Cheers and good luck!
Aug. 26, 2018 | 6:09 a.m.
How about a low board OOP as the 3-bettor? Either deep or a board/SPR where the 3bettor can not obviously just pot-bet a large fraction of his range. I'll think about this and see if I can come up with something better / more nuanced.
Aug. 6, 2018 | 8:27 p.m.
That makes it an easy shove with the K622-hand. One thing to keep in mind is that even aggro players who pot-cb with air when spr is higher like ~4+ and then go on to fold vs a raise may not have many bet folds when spr is lower like ~2. If the board is such that it contains no draw vs the current nuts (monochrome or paired) they may be unusually value heavy. The K653 on QQ2s hand I would however take as evidence that he isnt that type of player and hes prob capable of bluffing off his stack whenever. So no sweat, wp & gl!
July 5, 2018 | 12:24 a.m.
My guess in my previous comment was a little optimistic. We have about 28% vs a get it in range of 2p+ which I assume he doesnt fold with these odds. If he folds 65 and gii with K5+ then our eq drops to 23%. vs all K5+ and all wraps we have about 26% (assuming a raise pre flop of 50%, the wider he raises pre the more feq and/or eq vs his gii range we will have as he will have fewer flushes and sets the junkier his pre flop range is).
Here's an EV calc assuming top50% pre flop and 28%eq vs a gii-range:
when he folds F we win 2.92
when he calls (1-F) we lose 0.91
2.92F - 0.91(1-F) = 0
2.92F - 0.91 + 0.91F = 0
3.83F = 0.91
F ~ 0.24 (24%)
So a fold equity above 24% (lets call it 30% if we think we have less than 28% eq vs his gii range) is needed to reach the breakeven point.
The Ad is his main bet-folding hand, he will have the Ad (no flush or 2p+) about 5% of the time so it would be -EV to shove vs a range that only contains that hand as a bet-fold. Throw in a few blocker bluffs that he will bet-fold or total air for that matter like Qd,Jd,Td or AA/K no flush or draw and he will easily end up betting so many non K6+ hands that a shove is +EV.
To put it in perspective, a betting range of 2p+,Ad,pair+wrap,K:87 makes up ~40% of his pre flop range, which isnt that aggressive...an aggro opponent could easily cb this flop (altho perhaps not for pot) upwards of 60-70% at which point it will contain so many bet-folds or weaker gii hands that our shove is easily +EV.
July 5, 2018 | 12:18 a.m.
Start folding the bottom 20-30% of your range when facing a raise in the bb. I can try to give more specific tips if you have some more info like A) their barreling tendencies (do they one and done or two and done or capable of 3brling balanced) B) how they tend to proceed vs xr and leads on flop/turn/river etc C) do they open 60-70% as well or are there some limps in their btn vpip range D) their avg cb % otf as well as brl % and fold to turn after xbing flop
Its not a dumb question btw
July 4, 2018 | 2:39 a.m.
@25:30 min mark
I agree that xcing with the AKQ6 on QJ7r wont work out well and is prob -EV vs some1 with a solid range that barrels turn often. I would rather fold than xc without a read.
What about shoving? Im guessing he only needs to fold ~25% of the time for a shove to be +EV if we have about 33% vs a stack off range consisting of [Q7+, AKT, KT9, QT98, Q+:AT+].
June 27, 2018 | 12:50 p.m.
I missed that he minraised preflop first in, that makes it less of a fold on the flop. However I see plenty of ppl bet large (75-100% pot) with top set as the 4bettor at small and mid stakes whenever theres a fd or sd out there even when the board is relatively dry like this one.
Theres still a good chance that min raising is his std with his whole btn range or parts of it. When I see someone min raise - 4b pot with AA its usually the very worst or the very best (AAos or connected AAds) so I wouldnt assume that he doesnt have AA when he takes this line.
You showed the results so my nitty approach may not seem as credible as it otherwise would but without a read on his 4b range and whether he ever minraises AA in the first place, this would be a good time to play around with some ranges. If I were you, I would find the approximate BE points for the flop and turn call (how big a % non-AA needs to be). If you find answers to these questions (using propokertools or similar and some EV calcs):
A) how many non AA hand does he have to bet on the flop for us to wanna call (for simplicity you could assume that you never get outdrawn and will never fold turn)
B) how many non AA/KT/QQ does he have to shove ott (he could def value jam worse here like AJ/AQ)
If nothing else this exercise will make future similar spots easier or at least less of a guessing game.
The turn card is both good and bad. Its good bc his potential value range that you beat is now wider (he jams AQ if he gets here with it). An aggro player may bluff KK or protection/semibluff- jam AKK, the most likely non AA-hands to be in a 4b range. Its bad bc I wouldnt think the avg player at these stakes does bluff ai with naked KK lets say KK65ds here and KKT/AKTB/AKTds got there.
All in all its so close I can go either way so I would just go on feel in game and wouldnt fault anyone for folding flop or going with it. Some people (nits or tight players with low pre flop aggression) only 4bet AA unless youve been super aggro, and even when they add KK they may only fire once on an A-high flop as a bluff.
His 0% 3b despite the low sample makes me doubt whether he 4bets enough non-AA let alone fire flop+turn with enough weaker hands for me to wanna continue on the flop so I still slightly lean towards a fold. To put it in perspective Id never fold vs someone with stats like 55/25/12 or even 35/25/8 when they take this line.