To what HawksWin said I am adding the importance of position. if we are 150-300 deep I am still 4b TT-QQ IP (I expect good reg villans in BB, lets say, to wider their 3b range as well).
Pool you play might impact strategy - what regs 3b at 2nl is very different from 25nl same goes with 4b. There's not 1 player that would 4b 65s IP 300bb deep at 5nl for example.
Another mention is the strategy in regards to the gap you gave 150-300. 150BB not so deep in my view - 2 won pots away from a starting stack.
200BB deep I might no longer stack off KKs depending on villan.
300BB+ different story, everything mentioned by Hawks or RaoulFlush applies.
May 4, 2021 | 8:24 p.m.
No I personally do not, have way much better hands than TPWK, dont beat any 2 random pairs and the "blocker topic" is half valid 86 is a str8 there as well - also when I look at overbets I am not only looking at POT but what I have invested already in the pot so here we have 0.65 to protect and are being asked 2.60. snap fold
May 4, 2021 | 8:02 p.m.
snap fold - If he had anything but a flush based on the reads he'd jam turn - so no Kx in his range there - those 2 hands previously played you mentioned make me wanna snap fold this one.
If you bucket range on river and call vs villan AK+ you will have no folds tbh...
May 4, 2021 | 7:49 p.m.
One thing that I see completely missed out by this post is the ease of the human brain to adapt to either strategy and the ability to sustain fundamentally sound decisions. The human brain works in/on patterns that are formed by lets called them "habits". From my own experience as someone that has played exploit for many years I can say that the GTO world has brought serenity when I play a session, I grind volume even for an hour, and as silly as it sounds, I dont feel my brain fuming from all the exploits I am no longer looking for. I am happy with the Idea that my strategy works vs the majority and leave the exploiting of Y when I will have the time as a poker pro.
Where I am getting with this is that X simplifies the thought process of a hand therefore allows you to play longer while being able to make good decisions vs X and Y players. While an Y approach to the game is mentally brutal vs X and Y players as well.
As much as I did not want to admit this to myself for a too long period of time I believe what's going to keep me playing this game for the next 30years is the simplified approach each time I am playing a session. Despite of results this at least is not demoralizing as playing Y, doing a good/great job at it, losing, because real life has both rake and variance, and make you wanna quit the game for good.
I believe the baseline should be X style and when the opportunity is spotted to be able to do Y action. Instead of being Y style all the way. This surely leaves EV on the table but as a brother of mine once said "Nobody commited suicide from small wins, just gotta be patient and put in the good ol'work"
April 26, 2021 | 2:21 p.m.
They are keeping their value range intact and using a lot of Kx like K2s, K3s, K4s, K5s and it kind of makes sense. They don't want to waste the value of something merged, like 99 or AJs by 4b/folding it - I was thinking about this indeed, adding as bluffs the 54s and 76s instead of the hands that hold so much value like K10s or AJs 99 etc.
April 13, 2021 | 12:27 p.m.
is there any value in my river bet? - I dont think so, AQ,AJ beats you, AT/A5/Ax most likely folds to a shove. I believe it's a spot where you are folding worse/getting called by everything that beats you, mostly sets and 2 pairs with an A.
April 12, 2021 | 1:58 p.m.
Stoic I used to do the same based on my HM3, I was getting way too often to showdown with 1p hands and weak kickers as well, what I found it helped me was to make it a 2 street game in position and kill the pot geometry, give up on turns where I did not pick up extra equity made trips or 2p.
This flop check back is also good to diguise some monsterdraws from time to time and put yourself into a position where you are getting bet into on the turns and river and bomb it with the nizzie or as a bluff if you feel it would work! Induce bets from pp when an overcard hits the flop etc.
I dont think its a matter of hand reading villans hands, more on how you balance your range IP and OOP.
- Go on Upswing and pay up 7$ for their cheapest course/training - it works wonders at the micros. You will get the money back in your next session. Highly recommended!!
April 8, 2021 | 7:24 a.m.
RaoulFlush no need to apoligize mate and thanks for the input, I just wanted to know how people would play this spot differently in any way, good or bad, and make the assesment myself on which line I think is best in this 4b spot.
Where I was getting at is that I wanted your input about how you'd play the hand not a back and forth on how I would and so on, in the Idea that I dont find it constructive to debate a spot in such depth, for each of us a particular spot falls into a strategy that might be very different from one player to another.
For example I dont 4b bluff KQo but I do have 76s 65s because my 4b range is constructed differently from a core strategy standpoint.
April 8, 2021 | 7:13 a.m.
The downfalls of playing weird hours is that our brain is mapped to a limited amount of good decisions you are able to take during let's say 24h period, you can easily burnout without realising when you are multi-tabling for 3/4 hours straight. I personally fancy those sessions during the peak times because I make more profit. Poker is about both good decision making and volume and you want to put both when you feel at your best and the rooms at also at peak (this depends on each site, region etc. PS Europe runs well in the evenings for example).
On the athlete part, sadly you need to stop making this comparissons because poker is a game where you can do everything right and still might lose, and you have to accept that, its part of the game. What I can say is this, next time you have AA vs KK all in pre and you hold AA think of it like this "In this spot, I am supposed to lose 1/5 times".
Hope this helps!!
April 8, 2021 | 6:49 a.m.
RaoulFlush I am trying to be helpful here and provide an alternative to hero's line to avoid this spot in the future.
maco mentions OTT is not sure, whiteshark says he would go the same 1/4 on the flop. Both agreeing that turn bet is a nasty spot and river more so.
My 1st option would be to cbet around 60-70% pot to get a fold and with that spr I dont hate a shove as I am not folding, but surely I prefer the agressive line.
2nd option would be to check back (which is assume GTO has as highest EV) and see what develops on the turn by the time it gets to me and take then a turn decision. On the second option I dont like the fact that I am giving up the agression, a free card and turn decision might be even harder than flop sizing one.
The 1/4 option I find it great if board is less wet.
With all your theory about ranges, combos and overall poker knowledge, how would you advise Darbin to play this spot in the future?
April 7, 2021 | 5:35 p.m.
I dont think it adds pressure, It continues the one applied pre-flop. I am familiar with the concept of leveraging and the ease to get the stack in by the river with this SPR but you said it yourself, when we are nutted. In this spot I dont think we are. On that board nutted to me is AK-AA, 99s & KKs - I dont think we have often if ever 4s and 2p either.
- We dont hold a diamond to block the combos of straights and flushes villan could have, QJ,Q10,J10 Axd.
- The 1/3-1/4 offers a great price to realize its equity OOP with all his combo draws, I'd rather not do that. :))
I might leave money on the table but I prefer to take the FE or the flip and avoid a nasty turn spot.
If this wasn't such a draw heavy board 1/3-1/4 is perfectly fine.
April 7, 2021 | 2:19 p.m.
I personally dont use 1/3-1/4 bets in 4b pots with 1p hands, I prefer betting between 60-70% pot in this spot and apply pressure. I find it a bit akward to kill the spr pre 4betting just to follow it with a 1/3-1/4 once it gets checked to me.
In my opinion with an spr between 0-3 (in this case is something like,1.6 for villan on the flop) I am pretty much commited with top pair good kicker+ so I prefer betting larger on the flop to induce a shove or a fold, and I am good either way.
April 7, 2021 | 12:10 p.m.
Agree with whiteshark on the time frames or set nr of hands to play, set them up and keep a strict schedule. Dont just play saturday at 10 AM because you ve got nothing else to do.
- Keep the Sundays for playing and Mondays and Tuesdays for learning. IME the players are online more and more towards the end of the week.
- Check very carefully in your DB what tilts you and avoid those spots as much as possible.
- Table count is important, play what you can control and have the best decisions possible at the same time.
- Have a very good understanding of bad beats and variance (this helps tremendously).
April 7, 2021 | 6:56 a.m.
Sincerely thank you!!! This whole breakdown makes a lot of sense. I think I was too concerned by villan's range and how much of his 1p holdings I wanna keep in the hand with the nuts.
April 6, 2021 | 9:35 a.m.
whiteshark - noted, I am playing sessions of 1k hands 2 tableing so I will get there in a few days, weeks.
Cheerios! I am far from a reg at 25nlz, but I was not shot taking. I can play anywhere up to 25z - thank me for a hard worked bankroll! :) I am actually losing at 5nlz which gives me a headache. Winning a 10 & 25. But will work on the sample like you suggested. will get on the 10k mark on all levels up to 25z and then have a proper assesment.
April 6, 2021 | 9:31 a.m.
Its not an easy fold as played, I agree with whiteshark here, I am jamming flop.
But as a general note Im folding to the 5b, when I see BTN min raising, you then you 5x and he 5b min click again its literally AA only. AK would call to see a flop in position vs your 5x.
Being 250bb makes me wanna call the 3b and not kill the SPR and have more mobility post flop.
April 6, 2021 | 7:12 a.m.
140bb deep I dont think villan should stack off 1p hands, to your questions, I'd go bigger when the board has FDs as well. On a rainbow I am literally repping straight, sets, top2 as I'd have way fewer bluffs.
April 5, 2021 | 7:19 p.m.
That was my intention, on the river however it crossed my mind that a jam folds all 10x, hands and maybe even overpairs (it was 140bb eff.), while a half pot gets called by all of these holdings and shoved on by boats.
April 5, 2021 | 7:09 p.m.
Many thanks buddy! I thought It might be just varience as I ran 58bb/100 in a 1.5h session 2 tables. I believe this is not the norm and it was a run good session.
Regarding the HH i have something like 15k hands total where 10k hands are 2NLz.
I can confirm my redline skyrockets anyway which I believe requires a major change in my game. Maybe check more to induce and get more often to showdown with marginal hands....Idk..
April 5, 2021 | 4:04 p.m.
maco I am absolutely never folding that BB vs that action where I am getting 8/1 9/1 on a call :))). Looking of course for gin flops and if it comes 34A - I am stacking sets and A4 and maybe A5. Also a lot of players overplay badly AK and AQ.
Turn play I am folding only vs a CO shove to my overbet and that is the reason I chose the overbet, to find out where I stand vs CO as we were playing deep this multiwaypot. Once he called I knew I had the best hand. Dont really see the reason pre of not 3b Axs to isolate himself vs MP open.
I stopped a long time ago looking for monsters under the bed and switched my mentality in the lines of "if I bet, from what hands I am extracting value?". I know I lose to bigger flushes but meanwhile I beat, one pair with a spade, 2p,sets and straights.
On the slowplay part my thought was that in 4 way nobody should do that and they should try to get more money into the pot as that connected board, even with the Ahigh flush is still vulnerable to a naked J,Q,7 maybe six of spades. As my flop misclicked raise didnt get 3b I really did not believed any other player had a flush.
If you guys have access to a solver could you please let me know how GTO would play this turn?
April 5, 2021 | 3:59 p.m.
Not really sure if I should be happy of the overall results, be mad at that drop, or how we read the red line.
IMO it shows agression an pots won with non showdown, but this can also be seen as VBing incorrect sizing on rivers especially and help villans make the correct play by folding.
Am I off and there's nothing to worry about?
Also have graphs where the blue and red lines are literally reversed.
Your helps is paramount here!! much appreciated.
April 5, 2021 | 1:12 p.m.
PokerStars - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by Holdem Manager 3 : http://www.holdemmanager.com
BTN: $29.14 (116.6 bb)
SB: $28.18 (112.7 bb)
Hero (BB): $127.16 (508.6 bb)
UTG: $83.63 (334.5 bb)
MP: $29.45 (117.8 bb)
CO: $34.64 (138.6 bb)
SB posts $0.10, Hero posts BB $0.25
Pre Flop: (pot: $0.35) Hero has 8h 7h
2 folds, CO raises to $0.75, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.50
Flop: ($1.60, 2 players) Tc 9h 6d
Hero checks, CO bets $1.50, Hero raises to $4.72, CO calls $3.22
Turn: ($11.04, 2 players) 3s
Hero bets $6.11, CO calls $6.11
River: ($23.26, 2 players) 3h
Hero bets $12.88, CO calls $12.88
Do we jam river here and hope to get looked up by overpairs or is the sizing fine in this spot?
April 5, 2021 | 1:07 p.m.
PokerStars - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
BTN: $82.88 (331.5 bb)
SB: $22.94 (91.8 bb)
Hero (BB): $81.14 (324.6 bb)
UTG: $18.67 (74.7 bb)
MP: $25.00 (100 bb)
CO: $64.21 (256.8 bb)
SB posts $0.10, Hero posts BB $0.25
Pre Flop: (pot: $0.35) Hero has 2s 5s
fold, MP raises to $0.57, CO calls $0.57, fold, SB calls $0.47, Hero calls $0.32
Flop: ($2.28, 4 players) 9s 8s Ts
SB checks, Hero checks, MP checks, CO bets $0.50, SB calls $0.50, Hero raises to $1.25, MP calls $1.25, CO calls $0.75, SB calls $0.75
Turn: ($7.28, 4 players) Jc
SB checks, Hero bets $10.15, fold, CO calls $10.15, SB raises to $21.12 and is all-in, Hero raises to $79.32 and is all-in, fold
River: ($59.67, 2 players) 5h
Players agreed to run it twice.
River #2: ($59.67, 2 players) 2h
Results: $59.67 pot ($0.00 rake)
Final Board: 9s 8s Ts Jc 5h 2h
My thought process on the turn after everybody called the bet and raise(misclicked in regards to the size) is that I must trim down the field as a baby flush is ultra vulnerable vs all their combos, so I elected to overbet turn to extract value from QJ, 76 J10 or and maybe induce unpaired broadways with one big spade to jam.
Is this a good overbet or not?
Do we ever believe villans would slowplay here a bigger flopped flush??
April 5, 2021 | 1:02 p.m.
Stoic-Centurion947 sorry to hear about the $$ issues, dont wanna piss on your parade but with all the material available online, for free, I think your intentions are futile. Dont mean to sound sour, I would not invest the time in doing a pdf.
Agreeing with HawksWin I would personally go back to the fundamentals of poker. You dont need solver trees, freq and GTO robotics.
Understanding position is absolutely the 1st fundamental and first habit you need at the table. Take a session, make the effort of playing X range, but only from CO&BTN and just practice that for your discipline.
Study sb vs bb play, because in 6 max it happens often. Defending correctly your BB either by 3b or calling will increse tremendously your bb/100.
I understand pool tendancies but keep in mind that in one hand you are playing a particular player. Out of each pool a certain x% willl be a decent/good player, lets say 15%, avoid these players and dont fall in love with "aaaah pool tendencies are these" just because you want to justify a bad play.
20BI rule is only good for people that open 1 table and have massive discipline levels. Aim for 40-50BI, for 2 tables should be more than enough. Lose 2/3 BI session over. You win 3/4/5 session over again. Gotta learn to leave the table when you made a profit, part of the game is knowing when to quit.
As a conclusion, we dont quit poker if we love the game, we get better at it. :)
April 5, 2021 | 3:03 a.m.
Hi niggel and welcome to the forum!
I agree with is not necessarily the case, however you have to take into consideration the sb vs bb particular dynamic, which is almost a heads up spot with BB holding position all the way. Both ranges are ultrawide here.
The 50% range is actually an understatement, I personally think I am defending my BB vs SB spr something like 70-75%. 6-max also holds a lot of value in a one single pair hand.
With villan calling pre, flop and turn and being OOP you have 0 info about his hand. I can see villan calling down K5off as well as A9, or QJo/J10o/109o but also having no reason to raise facing aggression, hands like K10, KQ, J9 or even 34d thats rivered 2p.
A lot of the forum buddies, which I do not necessarily desagree with, did not indicate for how much would they tripple river here and why, is it 40%pot?, is it 75%pot?, is it a river jam? I believe this aspect is important when discussing different lines, otherwise we will never fully understand the various approaches to the game, which surely relates to the individual and not the game. Some are very comfortable blasting off, some are more conservative and have a showdown value approach etc etc.